For those that left the UPC...

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

One thing I notice is it says obey him, not a list of rules and such. Many have faith believing in Christ and he died for their sins, but smoke dope, fornicate etc....are they saved? They will confess Christ is lord and raised from the dead.

You are the one that just formed a list of rules," but smoke dope, fornicate etc...." what are you trying to say, "Obey what?" If not a list of rules.

You qouted James 2 but let's read on to verse 24:

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"


Seems to go against your faith alone position.

Very good, but you are missing the point. All this is after salvation, has come into our lives. What we are talking about in these passages are the proving points that should be manifested in the live of a saved one. But these do not bring intitial salvation into our lives.

You ask does "those not circmucised were cut off as well. Does that apply to baptism?" Yes there comes a time when God will cut them off if they do not obey his spirit and word. But here is the point I do not beleive we have the authorityj or right to judge anyone as to whether they have God in thier lives or not.
Including smoking dope and commiting fornication. When Jesus said judge not lest you be judged means in all things, We are not to judge each other, we are to show love one to another.
Let me give an example of this and why I beleive we must not look through our human eyes but let God do the work.
My eldest daughter got herself pregnant, thank God she refused to get an abortion as the father wanted her to. Three months before my grandson was born the father came back into my daughter life. He did not want to have a child of his to not have a father his dad had not been in his life. We sat down and had a long talk, I told him that if he stayed around us and he loved God he would come to see things our way in God because if we had the truth, truth would prevail. Three months after my grandson was born my daughter and the father sat down with my wife and I and said they had decided to move into together as the father could support my daughter better. As he lived accross the state.
Now my grandson was 3-4 when the father came to God. My daughter and him still lived together for 2 more years before I performed thier wedding.
Now we want to say they were in sin during that two years. I say God knew the heart and situation.
We say a person must get baptized right away to be saved, I say it does not matter when they get baptized solong as they do. And if for some reason the pass from this life before baptism we are not thier judge.
And finaly what does justification have to do with salvation. Abraham was already saved and obeying God long before he offered Isaac on the alter. Abraham was already counted as righteous even before circumcision.

[Sister Alvear]

The most important thing is to guard our hearts...salvation is MOSTLY a heart issue...many times we may be right on some issue but if our spirit is wrong all becomes tainted...

[Sister Alvear]

lol...I am thinking some will say I don't believe anything...that is not true...however we must be careful those that we would judge....harsh judgment has a way of coming back home...and it brings a lot more baggage....

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Very good, but you are missing the point. All this is after salvation, has come into our lives. What we are talking about in these passages are the proving points that should be manifested in the live of a saved one. But these do not bring intitial salvation into our lives.

You ask does "those not circmucised were cut off as well. Does that apply to baptism?" Yes there comes a time when God will cut them off if they do not obey his spirit and word. But here is the point I do not beleive we have the authorityj or right to judge anyone as to whether they have God in thier lives or not.
Including smoking dope and commiting fornication. When Jesus said judge not lest you be judged means in all things, We are not to judge each other, we are to show love one to another.
Let me give an example of this and why I beleive we must not look through our human eyes but let God do the work.
My eldest daughter got herself pregnant, thank God she refused to get an abortion as the father wanted her to. Three months before my grandson was born the father came back into my daughter life. He did not want to have a child of his to not have a father his dad had not been in his life. We sat down and had a long talk, I told him that if he stayed around us and he loved God he would come to see things our way in God because if we had the truth, truth would prevail. Three months after my grandson was born my daughter and the father sat down with my wife and I and said they had decided to move into together as the father could support my daughter better. As he lived accross the state.
Now my grandson was 3-4 when the father came to God. My daughter and him still lived together for 2 more years before I performed thier wedding.
Now we want to say they were in sin during that two years. I say God knew the heart and situation.
We say a person must get baptized right away to be saved, I say it does not matter when they get baptized solong as they do. And if for some reason the pass from this life before baptism we are not thier judge.
And finaly what does justification have to do with salvation. Abraham was already saved and obeying God long before he offered Isaac on the alter. Abraham was already counted as righteous even before circumcision.

Are you saying they weren't in sin the two years they lived together before getting marriage??


I'll post later on the faith alone thing. It is a subject apostolic should discuss more, that's for sure.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

lol...I am thinking some will say I don't believe anything...that is not true...however we must be careful those that we would judge....harsh judgment has a way of coming back home...and it brings a lot more baggage....

Thats alright Sis My wife used to think I did not believe anything either till God opened her eyes. LOL I have some very deep convictions and sometimes I even voice them. LOL

Blessings Bro and Sis Alvear keep up the good work of God

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Are you saying they weren't in sin the two years they lived together before getting marriage??


I'll post later on the faith alone thing. It is a subject apostolic should discuss more, that's for sure.

Yes that is exactly what I am saying, We tend to look at people through the eyes of the rules that we have laid down for ourselves and not the heart as God does. There are many elements to the story that I did not put in. Because those other elements that I knew were not what others that judged them saw. So let me add two more elements. First when my son inlaw came to me and told me they were moving in together he told me this was not just moving in together but it was long term relationship. From that point on he called me dad and I called him son. In my and my wifes eyes they were married just as much as OT fathers gave their daughters to wife. There were not papers registered by the state back then. This is new man made laws.

Second When my son inlaw was saved and God spirit came into him. his changed was over night. the week before he was still talking like any other good christian man with Catholic background. the day after God filled him with his spirit he spoke to me on the phone. They were battling a demon, I almost did not recognize him because he spoke like one that had been in Pentecostal church his whole life. The change was complete and overnight.
that weekend we drove down and took them to church pastored by a close friend. When the alter call came he went down and continued giving himself to God as mucus was hanging from his nose almost to his knees and tear fell freely this proud, opinionated, responsible, man that had made himself succesful in life as a young man in high leadership position at HP gave himself over to God.

Today they have become leaders in the large former UPCI church they attend.

So yes I beleive salvation is complete when and if one has true faith and confesses with thier mouth Jesus Christ is Lord. If thier salvation is true, true works will follow and fruits of the spirit.

I just had a thought I will share, when someone gives thier heart to God they are so full of the giving spirit of God that most will so almost anything asked of them if they are given scriptural bases. This is why we must be so careful of what we require of the children of God, that we don't put on them things that are not truely Gods commmand for our lives. We are to each seek out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

[Truthseeker]

So she got pregnant, he left then came back, they started living together, but it's not sin?? No marriage decree, ceremony or presentation??

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

So she got pregnant, he left then came back, they started living together, but it's not sin?? No marriage decree, ceremony or presentation??

The pregnancy was sin, she was not living for God at that time either, After the baby was born (a few months to be exact) is when they decided to move in together. Still not living for God. Still sin. But as for my wife and I married as the way the arangment was made. They ask for our blessing and we gave it. At that time my wife and I beleive in our eyes and the eyes of God they were married. Therefore as they were not living in sin but still did not make a comitment to God, that was 3 years later when my grandson began to see demons in his bedroom. Through the prayers of my eldest daughter and my youngest daughter praying though the house as they had been taught to do, God refilled my eldest daughter and when my son inlaw began to pray with them God filled him with his spirit. This is what caused the change in his manner. That weekend is when my wife and I traveled down and took them to church.

It was a few years later they felt the need to make their marriage official in they eyes of man. I performed their marriage.

The point in all of this is when someone comes to God we do not have the authority to dictate to them how to live, what to wear, and any other dictates the church seems to think they must teach when someone does not change the way they think they should.

I have seen too many couples that were living together told they must marry when they came to God, to end up in divorce less then two years later. I have seen too many young girls or boys told they must marry because they had sex and the girl got pregnant, to only divorce years later.

I beleive the main reason Jesus upbraided the relegious leader in his day was because they were forcing their doctrines upon everyone they could. Jesus told them that they traversed land and sea to make one prosolyte to only turn them into a devil 7 time what they were.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Sam

Since 1992 I have just gone to a trinity church (one from 1992 to 2006 and another from 2006 till the present). I feel much better about the people I associate with and much better about myself after getting out of the UPC. By now many of the folks in those various UPC splits and factions have either forgotten me or have accepted me or have just written me off as reprobate.

Its sad that you could not find any solice so you went to a trinity church. How much does it bother you regarding their baptismal formula or belief on the Godhead. Are they " I will see three in heaven" type trinitarians or are they "its all one" type trinity

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

So yes I beleive salvation is complete when and if one has true faith and confesses with thier mouth Jesus Christ is Lord. If thier salvation is true, true works will follow and fruits of the spirit.

.

Then you have a different view then Peter and Paul and the early church. They taught we are saved by grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast (works of the Law) and also other things too. They taught there was a conversion where you were saved from previous sin, an encounter where you can be saved from the power of sin currently, and the hope that you will be saved from the presence on sin in the future.

Salvation was always ongoing in the scripture. There is no point you can say, I am completely saved, if so that would mean you have no sin nature anymore to deal with. This was Paul's discourse in Romans 6,7,8. He also talked about was saved, presently being saved, and having the hope of salvation in the future.

Honestly bro, if we take Romans 10:9 and all the faith scriptures (howbeit faith without works is dead anyway) and leave out work out your own salvation, endure till the end, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, etc.. as necessity.. we have become totally different than the first church and we LOSE our apostolic identity.

That identity cannot be lost.

That being said I do not believe the Lord will let anyone that is currently seeking Him with their whole heart to be lost in Hell. He will lead them in truth.

The apostolic church needs the revelation of grace and the "easy believism" faiths need revelation that there is more to it.