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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
Will all Trinitarians be lost is not my approach. Better to ask is Jesus the Christ.
We will define Christ from the prophecy of Isaiah where he first foretells his coming.
Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born , unto us a son is given : and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be calledWonderful, Counsellor , The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.
Can a believer in Christ acknowledge everything Isaiah said about the CHRIST pertains to Christ Jesus?
Is he the THE SON who was given? Is he the WONDERFUL COUNSELOR? Is he the MIGHTY GOD? Is he the EVERLASTING FATHER? |
You're taking
Isaiah 9:6 and creating a mishmash of an interpretation as most oneness folks do. You ask, "Is He the Son"? Of course, the scripture states that a child is born a son is given. Yes, this person is the Son of God, no doubt about that. A critical error in your analysis of the passage is your failure to recognize that the passage then says that
His NAME shall be called.....and then gives several attributes that this Son who is given will possess. Does anyone baptize in the name of wonderful? Of course not, that's an attribute as all the following are attributes of the Son who is given. Who is giving the Son? Not the Son, but God is giving the Son. This Son who God the Father gives has all the attributes of His God and Father per
John 14.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Jesus was not His Father, Jesus was in His Father and His Father was in Him therefore He had the attributes of His God and Father. In fact, He did nothing other that what He saw His God and Father do.
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
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If one does not confess what the prophecy says about the coming Messiah and that he is Yeshua/Jesus as far as I can tell they are lost.
Of course the prophecy when read as it stands reveals the Christ is BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON.
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No it doesn't. See the scriptures above. Jesus knew very well that He wasn't the Father but that He was in His Father and His Father was in Him, per scripture.
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I had one of my earlier Trinity Pastors tell me this when I came to the truth.
"Now Mike Jesus is LIKE the Everlasting Father but he is not the Everlasting Father."
Sorry friends that confession would make Yeshua into an imposter and false Christ.
Whoever the Christ is HE MUST BE THE ETERNAL FATHER to fulfill Isaiahs prophecy!
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Not true. Christ must have the attributes of His God and Father.
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If Yeshua is the Christ he must be the Father and the Son.
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If Jesus is the Christ, then He can't be His own Father. Someone anointed Jesus, thus His title the Christ, and He did not anoint Himself. His God and Father anointed Him, per scripture, and was with Him.
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
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Begotten Son-Eternal Father.
I think this is a good guideline as to who is a true Christian. An anti christ spirit will rebel at confessing Jesus is the Father and the Son. They will not be able to do it.
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I'm not sure if you're twisting scripture purposely or not, but you've again misquoted what the bible says.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
Nothing there about confessing that Jesus is the Father and the Son. The passage makes a distinction between the Father and the Son as do hundreds and hundreds of scriptures.
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But now one may not understand much of the theological discussions concerning HOW Jesus can be both but if they will at least agree with Isaiah that he IS BOTH I will consider him my brother or sister.
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We all have to make our own personal decisions. My personal decision is to consider you as a brother in Christ.
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Years ago I was discussing this with a man who said he was a Jewish Rabbi. We went around about it for a while and when I brought it down to Isaiah 9:6 he said "I dont understand it but I confess Yeshua is the Father and the Son". For me that is the litmus test.
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A Jewish Rabbi confessed that Jesus is the Father and the Son? What kind of Jewish Rabbi would make such a confession?
No doubt.
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