Gen 3:22, Who are the US here?

[mfblume]

Bible Proof of the use of plurality of majesty in scripture:

Ezr 4:18 KJV The letter which ye sent unto us hath been plainly read before me.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

and? What other translations do you know of that were not trinitarian and how do they translate it differently?

I quoted the translation of the JPS (Jewish Publication Society) in one of my posts yesterday. They aren't trinity and their version read very much like the KJV. I also quoted from the CJB which is the translation of a Messianic Jew. I don't know if he is a trinitarian or not. I also quoted from the Syriac Peshitta which is a translation by George Lamsa who says that the Eastern church does not believe in three persons but three attributes. I think I have prevviously quoted from one or two of the targumim (Jewish paraphrases) which say
"And the Lord said to the angels who ministered before Him, who had been created in the second day of the creation of the world, Let us make man in Our image, in Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl which are in the atmosphere of heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every reptile creeping upon the earth. And the Lord created man in His Likeness: [JERUSALEM. And the Word of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the presence of the Lord He created him, the male and his yoke-fellow He created them.] In the image of the Lord He created him, with two hundred and forty and eight members, with three hundred and sixty and five nerves, and overlaid them with skin, and filled it with flesh and blood. Male and female in their bodies He created them. And He blessed them, and the Lord said to them, Increase and multiply, and fill the earth with sons and daughters, and prevail over it, ...

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sam

I quoted the translation of the JPS (Jewish Publication Society) in one of my posts yesterday. They aren't trinity and their version read very much like the KJV. I also quoted from the CJB which is the translation of a Messianic Jew. I don't know if he is a trinitarian or not. I also quoted from the Syriac Peshitta which is a translation by George Lamsa who says that the Eastern church does not believe in three persons but three attributes. I think I have prevviously quoted from one or two of the targumim (Jewish paraphrases) which say
"And the Lord said to the angels who ministered before Him, who had been created in the second day of the creation of the world, Let us make man in Our image, in Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl which are in the atmosphere of heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every reptile creeping upon the earth. And the Lord created man in His Likeness: [JERUSALEM. And the Word of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the presence of the Lord He created him, the male and his yoke-fellow He created them.] In the image of the Lord He created him, with two hundred and forty and eight members, with three hundred and sixty and five nerves, and overlaid them with skin, and filled it with flesh and blood. Male and female in their bodies He created them. And He blessed them, and the Lord said to them, Increase and multiply, and fill the earth with sons and daughters, and prevail over it, ...

Exactly. It's erroneous to suggest they added the plural. In fact the Jews came up with the notion God was speaking to angels long before this discussion

[Sam]

I have a book titled "Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements." It has 916 pages and has a copyright date of 1988. Mine is the sixth printing with a date of January 1993. So, it is out of date on some stuff.

Here are some quotes from pages 648 and 649 about Oneness Pentecostals

...the threefold divine reality is defined as "three manifestations" of the one Spirit in the person of Jesus. As a form of modalism, it preserves the radical monarchy of God and affirms the triune revelation....

The functional term "offices" is preferred by some writers instead of "manifestations." But its lack of biblical reference and impersonal tone make it less appealing to most Oneness representatives.

The Oneness interpretation of the traditional "us" passages in the OT (e.g. Gen 1:26;3:22), which some Trinitarians interpret as conversation among the members of the Trinity, varies with the authors. Gordon Magee argues that God is speaking to angels (n.d.). John Paterson, who holds a variant position that the Word had a distinct status before the Incarnation, believes that God was conversing with the Word, "the embodiment of the invisible God" (n.d.) Embodiment here refers to a divine hypostatic distinction. The plural name, "Elohim," is generally interpreted as a plurality of attributes or majesty, not persons.

Analogies are used by Oneness writers to illustrate their view of the Three-in-One, such as the triune nature of humanity as body, soul, and spirit; a man as son, husband, and father; a tree with roots, branches, and sap; a light ray giving illumination, warmth, and power; and fire which give light, heat, and power. The Oneness choice of analogies, however, is poor; because of their Trinitarian implications, the Oneness point is lost. Some analogies would legitimately place the Oneness view within the acceptable range of Western Trinitarian thought.

The three manifestations of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit function in much the same way as persons do in Trinitarian theology. Personality is attributable to all three.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

I don't think that the pronoun ‘US’ at Genesis 1:26 and 3:22 refers to God together with the angels. Otherwise this pronoun "us" would then make both God together with the angels the joint creators of the universe, in direct contradiction of Isaiah 44:24 which says that YHWH alone creates: "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;" (Isaiah 44:24, KJV).

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Prax,

Here's a good article that supports the angels as 'us'.

http://danielsegraves.blogspot.com/2...-make-man.html

‘Then the LORD God said, “behold the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil ….’ (Genesis 3:22a).


Your argument falls down Mizpeh completely at Genesis 3:22, where the pronoun "us" used here, implies that the subject knows both good and evil. Now Yahweh God knows all things, being omniscient, for although he knows both good and evil, nevertheless he only practices good. However, the unfallen angels in heaven ONLY KNOW GOOD, and they do not know either evil or practice evil, being both unfallen and are thus incapable of omniscience.

So the pronoun "Us" at Genesis 1:26-27, 3:22 can only refer to Yahweh God alone. He alone is the ‘us’ who created mankind at Genesis 1:26-27, and so this pronoun cannot refer to either God together with the unfallen angels co-creating, or God together with the fallen demons creating mankind.

God thus creates us ‘all alone’ and ‘by himself’ (Isaiah 44:24), but as the Biblical revelation is made clearer as we move towards the New Testament revelation, we discover that the Father and Son are our creators (Hebrews 1:2, Colossians 1:13-17) and the Holy Spirit also creates us (Psalm 104:30). So this plural pronoun ‘us’ used occasionally in the Old Testament actually refers to the one God who created us and who is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Exactly. It's erroneous to suggest they added the plural. In fact the Jews came up with the notion God was speaking to angels long before this discussion

But the (unfallen) angels in heaven only know good, and not good and evil which Genesis 3:22 specifically refers to. The omniscient God knows both good and evil even if he does not practice evil, so Genesis 3:22 can't be referring to God and the angels.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

It's the same "us" as in Genesis 1:26, as well as in the subsequent confusing of the languages at Babel - the angels.

[KwaiQ]

I don't think anyone can prove the angels theory.

[sola gratia]

Originally Posted by KwaiQ

I don't think anyone can prove the angels theory.

The Angels had no part in creation ... some verses lend themselves to oneness, some to the trinity... ahhh the harsh reality of WE DONT KNOW IT ALL!