Respect as Women

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Sasha

Love you, ILG!

Thanks!

[ILG]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I pray that the original presentation, as so eloquently expressed by ILG, would begin to be presented to women, instead of the judgmental, hell fire, salvation-basis, what a difference it would make!!

Thanks, KBTW. I have tears in my eyes, because I truly believed and loved this message and gave 19 years to it. When I walked away, I was abused ( after having been abused in the church for years), called backslid, a heretic and all kinds of horrible names. It just proved to me what I knew to be true. The movement is toxic.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by ILG

Thanks, KBTW. I have tears in my eyes, because I truly believed and loved this message and gave 19 years to it. When I walked away, I was abused ( after having been abused in the church for years), called backslid, a heretic and all kinds of horrible names. It just proved to me what I knew to be true. The movement is toxic.

You have a voice, ILG, and it has a strong resounding, beautiful message. The Lord is restoring you to bring this message loud and clear to those who will hear it.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by ILG

Every culture has it's views about women, the place of women, what women should and should not do etc.

See, women are respected in the UPC in a way they are not in the world.

I would be interested in hearing feedback on this subject from all.

Well your piece sounds like an apology a Muslim woman would use to excuse that religion abusive behavior toward women.

Jesus was not a person who accepted social norms regarding women.
According to the social norms of that day, he a Jew was not supposed to talk to a woman alone, much less a Samaritan woman.

A person in religious slavery only knows that state and they find excuses for their state instead of seeking liberation from the chains.

The chauvinist pastors twist the language of the Bible to keep women in mental slavery with the threat of hell or that they will turn into Jezebels if they somehow seek more freedom.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

You have a voice, ILG, and it has a strong resounding, beautiful message. The Lord is restoring you to bring this message loud and clear to those who will hear it.

Thanks. I appreciate your support. I was a preacher/minister once. Then, I was a rose crushed underfoot. Hard to say where life will take me. Anyway, you are a sweetie.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Well your piece sounds like an apology a Muslim woman would use to excuse that religion abusive behavior toward women.

Jesus was not a person who accepted social norms regarding women.
According to the social norms of that day, he a Jew was not supposed to talk to a woman alone, much less a Samaritan woman.

A person in religious slavery only knows that state and they find excuses for their state instead of seeking liberation from the chains.

The chauvinist pastors twist the language of the Bible to keep women in mental slavery with the threat of hell or that they will turn into Jezebels if they somehow seek more freedom.

Yes, I agree. That's why I left and am still out. Anyway, a muslim woman can no doubt find beneficial things to her faith. Otherwise, why has she stayed? I don't see it as an all or nothing thing, necessarily. Unfortunately, the toxicity in the church forces many to choose.

[KeptByTheWord]

If, and this is a big IF... salvation/judgment/hell could be loosed from the original design of God for women..... what joy could come through knowing you are beautiful just the way the Lord created you, what joy could be in the heart of women to know that you don't have to be a sex symbol in order to find security, and a husband who loves you.

I think the main issue here is that salvation is tied to these issues, when it should not be.

IF salvation/judgment could be loosed from the message, I believe that in turn many many many women would willingly chose this liberating message, but the way it is presented now is exactly what ILG terms it... toxic. It kills. It destroys.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by ILG

Thanks. I appreciate your support. I was a preacher/minister once. Then, I was a rose crushed underfoot. Hard to say where life will take me. Anyway, you are a sweetie.

God has a plan for your life!!! Whatever it is, and wherever it takes you.... it will be beautiful!!!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I have conveyed to my daughters that our dress standards are largely preferential rather than scriptural (IMO), but that they are associated with a lifestyle that has a lot of benefits. If you choose to discard the rules, you are truly discarding more than that, and decisions to that end need to be made carefully and deliberately.

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Could you explain a little more about what you mean here?

Yes, please elaborate a little more. After ILG's posts, I am curious to hear more. Should be interesting.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Could you explain a little more about what you mean here?

I'll attempt to explain, but this is something that has come up in bits and pieces over the course of years of conversations. It's a complex topic that is hard to parse into a few paragraphs.

We've never taught our daughters that the traditional dress standards are scriptural (unless they can be clearly found in scripture). We have always taught them to be modest, to be feminine and to be classy/appropriate. IMO (and in my husband's opinion), most standards are applications of scriptural ideas or principles, but the rules themselves are obviously not clearly spelled out. Because of that, we wanted to present dress rules to them in THAT way, and not in the traditional "you have to do this or you'll go to hell." To have done that would have been lying, at least for us. We've also taught them the importance of obeying church leadership, even when you don't agree with a rule.

All that said, our girls have grown up with a clear understanding of the difference between something being clearly scriptural and something being a "preference" or simply a church teaching (that doesn't affect their salvation).

With that foundation, I have presented to my daughters the idea that living modestly and conservatively affords certain benefits that women who dress immodestly can't enjoy. There's simplicity in making modest choices, dressing modestly often commands respect from others, and in some ways it can be protective. Of course, I also extend this to behavior--not just the way we dress--but I do believe that how you present yourself to others affects the way they treat you.

Also, if my daughters want an Apostolic man who lives according to certain sets of values, then they will probably have to conform to the dress standards that accompany those values. To that end, we've recently had conversations in our home, as the girls get older, about the "bait and switch" routine. That's where a woman follows the rules until she gets married and then drops them because she never really wanted to follow them in the first place. One of my girls is interested in an ultra-con boy, and I had a serious discussion with her about the importance of accepting the rules that go along with the *lifestyle* for the long term and whether or not that was doable. For the good of the relationship, you have to go into with your eyes open, knowing that you can accept living by a set of rules even if you don't necessarily think they're biblical or necessary. What can be even more difficult is making your own children follow those rules, and we talked about that, too. We didn't just discuss that from the point of view of "you'll have to choose this", but more from the POV of "think hard before you accept a lifestyle, because it's a longterm choice."

Simply put, I like my conservative lifestyle, and while there are issues I find troublesome, I think overall that choosing to be an Apostolic women is similar to choosing to be a Muslim woman or an Orthodox Jewish woman, etc. There are trade-offs and there are benefits, and pragmatism is a necessity to survival and peace. Depending on the personality of the woman, it can be difficult or it can be easy. I don't find rules hard to follow, even if I find them disagreeable. I realize that isn't every woman's experience, and I think I've just tried to give my girls the benefit of my experience. Which is: In spite of the fact that I don't agree with every standard or guideline, my overall experience in the Apostolic church has been positive and beneficial to my life--as a Christian and as a woman.