Respect as Women

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by ILG

Can you give examples of this?

In my own experience (as both a SAHM mom and homeschooler), almost 100% of the support and resources for homeschooling have come from outside our denomination and organization. Also, I've had to defend both my choice to homeschool and stay at home with my kids to multiple UPCers/pentecostals, but rarely to secular people or people from other religions. I know quite a few men who expect their wives to work--even if they have small children--and are negative about women who choose to stay home. That may not be true of the group as a whole, but it's been my observation/experience.

Hmm. In the defense of some, I knew of a woman who was raped by her husband and the pastor was very unsupportive, but he would never treat his wife that way. I never understood his lack of support.

I'm sure I'm broad brushing with this one, but it does raise my hackles and make me suspicious. It seems to me that a man who is hesitant to defend a woman (or child) might be the same man who is guilty of abuse. Then again, it could be the opposite. Someone who makes a big show of defending women might easily be a hypocrite and abuser at home.

[missourimary]

ILG, did you date and marry before or after you joined UPC? How many young people in church do you know whose dating and engagement combined lasted more than six months? three? I'm not convinced that the church puts any less pressure on singles than the world-they only justify it with a quickly prepared ceremony.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by missourimary

ILG, did you date and marry before or after you joined UPC? How many young people in church do you know whose dating and engagement combined lasted more than six months? three? I'm not convinced that the church puts any less pressure on singles than the world-they only justify it with a quickly prepared ceremony.

Maybe you are right.

I met and dated my husband for two years and we were engaged before we got to the UPC. However, we were living together and the pastor never talked to both of us and asked us our plans etc. He pulled my husband aside, told him we were living in sin and said we needed to get married and that he would not baptize us until we got married. We got married right away, because we wanted to be right with God. Only a few church members were there, not my parents, his Mom or anyone related. So, that was twisted and warped, you know? But ideally, the way things are supposed to be or said to be, it should be a nice courtship with no pressure. so maybe that is just my imaginings of a ideal state??

[ILG]

In my own experience (as both a SAHM mom and homeschooler), almost 100% of the support and resources for homeschooling have come from outside our denomination and organization. Also, I've had to defend both my choice to homeschool and stay at home with my kids to multiple UPCers/pentecostals, but rarely to secular people or people from other religions. I know quite a few men who expect their wives to work--even if they have small children--and are negative about women who choose to stay home. That may not be true of the group as a whole, but it's been my observation/experience.

Yes, that is sometimes true. In my experience in the UPC, church is supposed to come before family, but in God's true way, it is the other way around.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I have conveyed to my daughters that our dress standards are largely preferential rather than scriptural (IMO), but that they are associated with a lifestyle that has a lot of benefits. If you choose to discard the rules, you are truly discarding more than that, and decisions to that end need to be made carefully and deliberately.

Could you explain a little more about what you mean here?

[*AQuietPlace*]

I think all of these scenarios are going to vary greatly from church to church. I attended one church where SAHMs were extremely supported - well, more than supported. Women working was greatly discouraged, except for single women.

Another where it was supported, but working moms weren't looked down on. And I've been to churches where SAHMs were looked down upon.

I know of one church where women are treated as second class citizens. Another where they run the place.

I think refraining from sex before marriage is the expectation in most denominations.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I think refraining from sex before marriage is the expectation in most denominations.

Yes, this is true. I wonder which denominations are more successful with that? I wonder if there is any way to know? I guess the real question is, which denominations create a respectful atmosphere towards women where their feelings and desires are respected and yet, men's are too? How much of this is based on biblical teaching and how much is cultural? Because, as we all can pretty well see, the larger culture often feigns respect towards women in saying women can have a career and get an abortion because it's "her" body etc. but in reality, women are often disrespected, having to carry the lion's share of work at home while working full time with kids and being expected to "hook-up" before marriage, disregarding her own feelings. Also, in the domestic abuse shelter where I worked for a year and a half, the women who were getting/ gotten abortions....it was usually not their own idea. Often it was pressure from the male who did not wan the responsibility, so it became "you get an abortion or you are completely responsible for this kid". And even the mothers of the women did this same pressure.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by ILG

Yes, this is true. I wonder which denominations are more successful with that? I wonder if there is any way to know? I guess the real question is, which denominations create a respectful atmosphere towards women where their feelings and desires are respected and yet, men's are too?

I'm not sure this is really a denominational issue. Probably more of a family/culture issue. Culture pervades our churches so much, in every denomination.

I think it is up to parents to demonstrate mutual respect towards each other, and to raise their children to know what that means. To teach our sons and daughter how to respect, and to expect to be respected.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by ILG

Because, as we all can pretty well see, the larger culture often feigns respect towards women in saying women can have a career and get an abortion because it's "her" body etc. but in reality, women are often disrespected, having to carry the lion's share of work at home while working full time with kids and being expected to "hook-up" before marriage, disregarding her own feelings. Also, in the domestic abuse shelter where I worked for a year and a half, the women who were getting/ gotten abortions....it was usually not their own idea. Often it was pressure from the male who did not wan the responsibility, so it became "you get an abortion or you are completely responsible for this kid". And even the mothers of the women did this same pressure.

There is such a breakdown in our society in all of these areas. Churches can go a long way in turning this around, for sure. If we have people who are living a committed lifestyle, and people who are willing to learn how to commit.

Older women who are willing (and qualified) to teach the younger is still a very valuable concept. Too many of the young ladies you mentioned above have never had that older, wise woman in their lives.

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by ILG

Yes, this is true. I wonder which denominations are more successful with that? I wonder if there is any way to know? I guess the real question is, which denominations create a respectful atmosphere towards women where their feelings and desires are respected and yet, men's are too? How much of this is based on biblical teaching and how much is cultural? Because, as we all can pretty well see, the larger culture often feigns respect towards women in saying women can have a career and get an abortion because it's "her" body etc. but in reality, women are often disrespected, having to carry the lion's share of work at home while working full time with kids and being expected to "hook-up" before marriage, disregarding her own feelings. Also, in the domestic abuse shelter where I worked for a year and a half, the women who were getting/ gotten abortions....it was usually not their own idea. Often it was pressure from the male who did not wan the responsibility, so it became "you get an abortion or you are completely responsible for this kid". And even the mothers of the women did this same pressure.

I wish there had been more teaching on sex when I was younger. Not from the kids at school or even from my parents. The church talked so much about how I should dress, they never taught about how I should act or how to have respect for myself.


About 20 years ago, there were three young women who became pregnant about the same time. Two of them were SS teachers and one was the piano player. Two of them were raised in the church and remain there today. Let's just say they were the ones who got caught.