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  #31  
Old 11-15-2012, 09:00 PM
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Re: In light of the incident at TPC...

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Originally Posted by deacon blues View Post
The LOVE of money is the root of all evil...not money is the root of all evil
Exactly! I've known people who didn't have two dimes to rub together but were so enthralled with money and "money people" that it was sickening - and I'm talking about pastors here. I've also known very Godly Christians who are mega wealthy but they are humble and extremely generous. Love of money has nothing to do with how much a person has or doesn't have.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with a mega church, whatever you claim that is. (I certainly wouldn't call TPC a "mega" church - they are less than a thousand. But that's beside the point.) If God entrusts a pastor as a shepherd of thousands, that's awesome. If he entrusts a shepherd with 100, that's also awesome. God knows what's best. But it doesn't make one right and the other wrong.

Accountability is the key. All churches should have at least an annual business meeting where all finances are displayed and gone over. If they aren't doing this, not only are they being foolish, they are being ILLEGAL.
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  #32  
Old 11-15-2012, 09:10 PM
deacon blues deacon blues is offline
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Re: In light of the incident at TPC...

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Originally Posted by Sherri View Post
Exactly! I've known people who didn't have two dimes to rub together but were so enthralled with money and "money people" that it was sickening - and I'm talking about pastors here. I've also known very Godly Christians who are mega wealthy but they are humble and extremely generous. Love of money has nothing to do with how much a person has or doesn't have.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with a mega church, whatever you claim that is. (I certainly wouldn't call TPC a "mega" church - they are less than a thousand. But that's beside the point.) If God entrusts a pastor as a shepherd of thousands, that's awesome. If he entrusts a shepherd with 100, that's also awesome. God knows what's best. But it doesn't make one right and the other wrong.

Accountability is the key. All churches should have at least an annual business meeting where all finances are displayed and gone over. If they aren't doing this, not only are they being foolish, they are being ILLEGAL.
That legality thing is kind of an important issue...
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  #33  
Old 11-15-2012, 09:11 PM
deacon blues deacon blues is offline
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Re: In light of the incident at TPC...

These bozos who are violating IRS tax laws for tax exempt orgs are going to ruin it for those of us who operate within the law. One day they may take the tax exemption away from churches for this very reason.
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‎When a newspaper posed the question, "What's Wrong with the World?" G. K. Chesterton reputedly wrote a brief letter in response: "Dear Sirs: I am. Sincerely Yours, G. K. Chesterton." That is the attitude of someone who has grasped the message of Jesus.
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  #34  
Old 11-15-2012, 09:29 PM
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Re: In light of the incident at TPC...

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Originally Posted by deacon blues View Post
These bozos who are violating IRS tax laws for tax exempt orgs are going to ruin it for those of us who operate within the law. One day they may take the tax exemption away from churches for this very reason.
If it doesn't happen during this presidential term, I will be greatly surprised. And also the pastor's housing exemption--that will probably be the first thing to go.
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  #35  
Old 11-15-2012, 09:57 PM
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Re: In light of the incident at TPC...

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Originally Posted by Evenuntodeath View Post
They don't? Funny, because I see them on the news everyday(no, they are not all UPC). The fact is money and power are tools for corruption, even the bible teaches this. Again, I don't know any biblical reference to where the apostles has excess to large sums of money and pastored over thousands of people. The closest biblical reference I can find to this are the pharisees.
You do NOT see them on the news "everyday". A huge exaggeration. For every large / mega church pastor that you read about failing I bet you there are hundreds who are not.

In fact I doubt there is much difference in the personal failure rate of those pastors and those that pastor much smaller churches.

The truth of the matter is that the issue isn't there being large churches the issue is men who do not have the foresight and ethics to protect themselves and their churches by having accountability and open books.

Do not get me wrong. I hate the "prosperity gospel" perversion of Christianity more than most and pray that every single pastor misusing and abusing saints money given for the work of God is brought down on this earth as I know they will be on judgement day.

I just don't believe it is a huge mistake to think there cannot be successful large churches.
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"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.

"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.

"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."

Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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  #36  
Old 11-16-2012, 12:33 AM
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Re: In light of the incident at TPC...

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Originally Posted by returnman View Post
I think you would be challenged on your overall claim here. There are probably just as many or more pastors that have fallen into similar scandals. We usually only hear about the big churches however.
That doesn't negate the idea of a church branching out as it grows. Your comment on fixed incomes is just plain common sense and the NT order. Most problems have to do with the governing structure in the majority of churches. It was never intended for one man, pastor/preachher to have that kind of rule over saints. The westernized world likes a "rock star" personality and to feel entertained.
Yes Sir! I totally agree.
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  #37  
Old 11-16-2012, 02:21 PM
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Re: In light of the incident at TPC...

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Originally Posted by freeatlast View Post
So Ferd, are you saying that nearly 50% of pastors of small pentecostal churches experience moral failures?
if one were to take a very small sampling one might come to that conclusion wouldnt one?


on the other hand I know of a church that is on its 3rd pastor in close to 90 years. none of them had/have had any moral failures.... that church has pretty much been between 300 and 600....based on that I suppose one could say that there are no failures ever?
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  #38  
Old 11-16-2012, 04:07 PM
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Re: In light of the incident at TPC...

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Originally Posted by Ferd View Post
if one were to take a very small sampling one might come to that conclusion wouldnt one?


on the other hand I know of a church that is on its 3rd pastor in close to 90 years. none of them had/have had any moral failures.... that church has pretty much been between 300 and 600....based on that I suppose one could say that there are no failures ever?
Section 8 in Louisiana back in the late 70's early 80's we had the sectional Presbyrtr, sectional SS director, and sectional Youth director all commit adultery within a couple of years of each other! None of those churches ran over 150 people. If you tried to draw conclusions from those figures back then you would have come up with at least a 50% failure rate (and of course that would have been horribly wrong).
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"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"

Titus2woman on AF
F


"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.

"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.

"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."

Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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  #39  
Old 11-16-2012, 04:25 PM
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Re: In light of the incident at TPC...

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Originally Posted by CC1 View Post
Section 8 in Louisiana back in the late 70's early 80's we had the sectional Presbyrtr, sectional SS director, and sectional Youth director all commit adultery within a couple of years of each other! None of those churches ran over 150 people. If you tried to draw conclusions from those figures back then you would have come up with at least a 50% failure rate (and of course that would have been horribly wrong).
Exactly. knuckleheads abound.

We live in a society that thinks we need a new law every time something bad happens.

What really needs to happen is people need to be more introspective and less demanding that others comply with thier silliness.
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  #40  
Old 11-16-2012, 05:27 PM
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Re: In light of the incident at TPC...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd View Post
Exactly. knuckleheads abound.

We live in a society that thinks we need a new law every time something bad happens.

What really needs to happen is people need to be more introspective and less demanding that others comply with thier silliness.
Yup. I get the feeling that the author of this thread loves Mayor Bloomberg's new law in NYC that bans soft drinks bigger than 16oz's! That ought to solve the obesity problem - LOL
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"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"

Titus2woman on AF
F


"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.

"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.

"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."

Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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