Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return

[Luke]

Godsdrummer do you not believe in any moment now rapture?

[bbyrd009]

I was taught the abomination of desolation
had to occur first; but I now pretty much
believe as GD does.

I think 'rapture' is pretty well covered
at Ezekiel 13:18-20. Another passage
you'll never hear preached in a Pent church.

[Luke]

What does that have to do with the rapture?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Luke

Godsdrummer do you not believe in any moment now rapture?

Sorry but I do not. The Cross was the focal point of the whole bible. This we have been taught over the centuries. I have come to see the resurrection to be to the OT saints, those that sleep in the promise of the comming redeemer, these the bible says God will not leave in Hades. The rest of those that God resurrected were those that died during the transition period from the cross to the destruction of Jerusalem, and the temple and all those that opposed his kingdom. All those that crucified him and did not repent, keeping instead the sacrificial system, which had become an abominaiton in the eyes of God after the cross. These, "waxed worse and worse" even to killing the early Christians.

We see a parralell, in Christ kingodom and the kingdom of David, as Christ was anointed king at his baptism, so was David anointed King in his youth, it was 40 years before David took the throne, having first to conquor his enemies. Christ took 40 years to establish his kingdom, then destroying his enemies. At which time he gathered all the saints that had died from the beginning of time till then, ruling from New Jerusalem from above which had come down.

Herein lies the problem, those that still look for a physical kingdom, when the kingdom of God did not come by observation. It is spiritual. Passages are quoted like "Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


Looking for this to lituraly happen, yet in this same passage we read.

Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Now let me ask you has the Spirit of God been given? Jesus spoke of giving water to the Samaritain women where one would never thirst again. So if these living waters, the Holy Ghost has been poured out, that so had the judgment of God, and so has the New Jerusalem from which the living waters flow.
Just as the living waters (the out pouring of God's spirit) is not a litural river that flows from a litural city called Jerusalem in some Eastern country. Neither are many of the other types and idioms that are use by the prophet as he wrote these words.

[samuelofisrael]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Don't have much time this morning, but would like to direct your attention to the verse you referance in Hebrews.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Has Christ not entered heaven already, to offer himself? Paul says he has entered heaven, not only that but Paul states this is the end of the world. What world?

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This verse states Christ appears to each and every one of us that lood for him. Not some reapearing at the end, the end has already come as Paul stated. Christ appears to you and I and each and every one that looks for him, Jew and Gentile the same.

Did God cut all the branches from the Olive tree? No he did not as seen by the many Jewish converts in the early church. God cut the bad branches off and destroyed them, just as he said he would. Ie Jerusalem destruction, and temple.

Today God appears to anyone that looks for him.

I am sorry but your method of exegesis is very strange to me and totally unacceptable to my way of thinking. I am sure you have your particular reasons for believing as you do but it's from a point of the compass that doesn't resonate with me. Were you a reader of Origen?

Actually I cited the incorrect chapters in Zechariah. I meant to cite chapters, 12, 13, 14.

We will have to agree to disagree on this particular issue.

Shalom

[Godsdrummer]

In continuation of my last post, we see that the writters of OT prophecy spoke of two or more times almost in the same sentance. Judgment and blessing. Many of these were acts of God that happened side by side. On one hand God is blessing those that love him, and judging those that disobeyed him.

We see this clearly on the day of Pentecost, when Peter Quotes Joel, speaking of the pouring out of God's spirit on one hand, then quoting the judgement to come to those that rejected this great promise. While we accept the first half was fulfilled, the pouring out of God's spirit, we reject that the other part of the prophecy was fulfilled in Peters life time. Why is this. When Peter spoke these words he stated "this is that which was prophecied" and procceded to quote the whole prophecy, including the judgement parts. It was from this he spring boarded into his message that caused 3000 to accept the Gospel that day. Read it for yourself.

With the above being said the New testament writters were no different, writting about more than one happening side by side. We see this in Thess. 4. Paul speaks of two different times, one the raising of the dead in Christ, and our own death.

We want to tie these two to the same time. But that is not what Paul is saying at all. Note the wording.

Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

God will bring them with him, who? Those that sleep, (those dead in the faith) What will happen to them? God will bring them with him. When?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then what happens?

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This word "together" also means "in like manner" or "close association" now we in the western world have come to read it as "at the same time", but remembering that the writers frequently spoke of two different things in the same passages. I feel that Paul is speaking of two happenings. The dead in Christ and all OT saints that slept raised at the time of his comming in judgement at the time of the final destruction of Jerusalem. And the then, when those which are alive and remain are caught up in close association to those that rose in the first resurrection.

We are caught up when we die. This does not take away anything from the promises of God at all. The only thing it does is secure our salvation and take away the fear of death. For as Paul states "now judgment begins at the house of God" To me this means we have been judged when by faith we enter the kingdom of God. We don't die without hope, the blood of Christ has washed all of our sin, and we stand before God calling him Aba father. We don't have to stand before a white throne judgment, we have been changed. This mortal has put on imortality, as Peter and Paul both state we dwell in a tabernacle of flesh in this life. But we have a tabernacle prepared for us when we die.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by samuelofisrael

I am sorry but your method of exegesis is very strange to me and totally unacceptable to my way of thinking. I am sure you have your particular reasons for believing as you do but it's from a point of the compass that doesn't resonate with me. Were you a reader of Origen?

Actually I cited the incorrect chapters in Zechariah. I meant to cite chapters, 12, 13, 14.

We will have to agree to disagree on this particular issue.

Shalom

Thank you I read all of them from chapter 10-14, it all comes from perspective. How are you seeing them and from what perspective. See I cannot anymore see God fulfilling one part of a prophecy and not the whole within the time frame given. As for the anology of your compass, a compass only works when one finds true north. I feel for most of my life my compass was stuck on something other than true north. And that was not just points of prophecy either.

I found I was stuck in the rut of religions traditions, vain deciet and philosophy after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ. When I got my compass unstuck so to speak, my perspective changed, I began to see the forest because i got my eyes off the trees, so to speak.

I don't appoligize, I could not change back to the way I used to see things, God has become more real to me than I ever thought he could be, in my previous 45 years. And trust me I was filled with his spirit at the age of 7 baptized in his name at the age of 10 and have been in minstry most of my life in one way or the other. From playing drums to starting a church. I know from whence I came, and where I am going.

[3=1not1=3]

I currently have a migraine and cannot read all posts in the thread, but it intrigued me enough to open it and read a few.

I remember a teaching and will have to look it up, but it stated that Jesus would not return until the temple in Jerusalem had been rebuilt.

Am I off in that?

[shag]

Originally Posted by 3=1not1=3

I currently have a migraine and cannot read all posts in the thread, but it intrigued me enough to open it and read a few.

I remember a teaching and will have to look it up, but it stated that Jesus would not return until the temple in Jerusalem had been rebuilt.

Am I off in that?

2 Cor. 6:16-17

Built in Acts 2, in Jerusulem
Built it to last this time...

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by 3=1not1=3

I currently have a migraine and cannot read all posts in the thread, but it intrigued me enough to open it and read a few.

I remember a teaching and will have to look it up, but it stated that Jesus would not return until the temple in Jerusalem had been rebuilt.

Am I off in that?

You are right there is a teaching that teaches that. But there is no scripture that acctualy says that. Instead they alude to it when they teach in the anti-christ. See according to them the anti-christ must desecrate the temple. And in order for that to happen there must be a temple. No temple no abomination of desolation by an anti-christ.