The New Normal - A Child Out of Wedlock

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

That's why I'm not a big fan of Christians being political activists. While I do believe that we should do our best to protect society as a whole from impinging evils, legislating righteousness will not actually bring about righteousness, and often has the opposite effect. People who try to impose righteousness upon themselves without the spirit of God are fighting a losing battle with their own humanity.

Far too often, the Christian who involves himself deeply in politics becomes Peter with a maiming sword rather than a positive, persuasive voice in a dark world.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

What if Futurism is indeed mistaken, and we are adopting a pessimistic view of the Kingdom? The very same spirit of antichrist was in the emperors of Rome, Popes, Mohammed, Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Mao,...and Christ crushed them all. People who sell their souls to this worlds system are just as marked as those in the theoretical future under a theoretical antichrist. We are losing our culture to Satan's kingdom. This is a very real and spiritual war between two kingdoms. As long as we expect and embrace defeat, that's what we will get. And our children will pay the highest price...their eternal souls.

I do not have pessimistic view of THE KINGDOM. My view of scripture is that FEW will be saved. Why? Because Jesus said so. Few among many. I still witness Christ to unbelievers on the streets of my town and elsewhere. I teach overcoming for all Christians. I dont expect defeat for the Spirit filled Christian. I do not expect that most people in the nations will be saved. If I did I would be doubting what the Saviour taught.

The modern Church has little effect on the culture around us because they teach a false gospel of unconditional love along with the deady teaching we need do nothing in order to be saved except "believe". They teach men they need not be sanctified only "justified" to enter the kingdom of YHWH and escape his wrath.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I do not have pessimistic view of THE KINGDOM. My view of scripture is that FEW will be saved. Why? Because Jesus said so. Few among many. I still witness Christ to unbelievers on the streets of my town and elsewhere. I teach overcoming for all Christians. I dont expect defeat for the Spirit filled Christian. I do not expect that most people in the nations will be saved. If I did I would be doubting what the Saviour taught.

The modern Church has little effect on the culture around us because they teach a false gospel of unconditional love along with the deady teaching we need do nothing in order to be saved except "believe". They teach men they need not be sanctified only "justified" to enter the kingdom of YHWH and escape his wrath.

I am not convinced that a majority of all who have been born will be saved. However, I'm also not convinced that the church will be a weak minority either. Some theologians believe in a coming global awakening or revival just prior to the second coming.

For example, the church has never been a majority in America. However, her affect on society led to America having essentially a Christian culture. We were founded on Christian principles of a God given freedom. This Christian affected culture has been under heavy assault within the past two generations. It happened once by the grace of God. It can happen again.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I am not convinced that a majority of all who have been born will be saved. However, I'm also not convinced that the church will be a weak minority either. Some theologians believe in a coming global awakening or revival just prior to the second coming.

For example, the church has never been a majority in America. However, her affect on society led to America having essentially a Christian culture. We were founded on Christian principles of a God given freedom. This Christian affected culture has been under heavy assault within the past two generations. It happened once by the grace of God. It can happen again.

Aquila,

Can you please show me at what point in American history you believe that people lived as a 'Christian culture'? Please give a date range and why you believe it was so. I have combed our history pretty thoroughly and find the idea that we are a 'Christian nation' or are founded on 'Christian principles' or have ever lived as a 'Christian nation' to be complete fallacies.

Many/most of our founding fathers were in fact Masons and set up our government on the principles of those beliefs, not the beliefs of the bible. Some also claimed a brand of Christianity while others were openly atheist.

We have always had large pockets of immorally living people in the US and continue to do so today. I will not deny that in some ways these people are not more flagrant and vulgar then in days past but I am convinced that most of this is simply a more complete exposure. We now know of every crime that goes on nation wide brought to us in 30 second snippets by our nightly news. People in the past were confined to knowledge of what went on in their own neighborhoods.

Let me give you one small example: I believe that in my generation just as many young girls were molested by relatives as are today. However those things were kept quiet by immediate and even extended family because of shame and even teachers and school officials looked away not wanting to get involved in a family's 'business'. Today there are reporting laws that place responsibility on those who fail to report, leading to more reporting (not more molesting). So now it appears that there is more incest when actually the numbers have not changed, just our ability to count and document them.

I think we can extend this method over all criminal activity pretty much and when adjusted for population our society has not changed much over generations but I hear from people every day that this day is worse than days before.

I wanted to add: I am asking this question of you because you seem to be quite capable of defending your views and I find this a common view. If it has a base I'd sure like to know what it is as I've not been able to uncover the 'Christian Nation' in our history. But if anyone else would like to chime in that would be great too.

Thanks.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Aquila,

Can you please show me at what point in American history you believe that people lived as a 'Christian culture'? Please give a date range and why you believe it was so. I have combed our history pretty thoroughly and find the idea that we are a 'Christian nation' or are founded on 'Christian principles' or have ever lived as a 'Christian nation' to be complete fallacies.

Many/most of our founding fathers were in fact Masons and set up our government on the principles of those beliefs, not the beliefs of the bible. Some also claimed a brand of Christianity while others were openly atheist.

We have always had large pockets of immorally living people in the US and continue to do so today. I will not deny that in some ways these people are not more flagrant and vulgar then in days past but I am convinced that most of this is simply a more complete exposure. We now know of every crime that goes on nation wide brought to us in 30 second snippets by our nightly news. People in the past were confined to knowledge of what went on in their own neighborhoods.

Let me give you one small example: I believe that in my generation just as many young girls were molested by relatives as are today. However those things were kept quiet by immediate and even extended family because of shame and even teachers and school officials looked away not wanting to get involved in a family's 'business'. Today there are reporting laws that place responsibility on those who fail to report, leading to more reporting (not more molesting). So now it appears that there is more incest when actually the numbers have not changed, just our ability to count and document them.

I think we can extend this method over all criminal activity pretty much and when adjusted for population our society has not changed much over generations but I hear from people every day that this day is worse than days before.

I wanted to add: I am asking this question of you because you seem to be quite capable of defending your views and I find this a common view. If it has a base I'd sure like to know what it is as I've not been able to uncover the 'Christian Nation' in our history. But if anyone else would like to chime in that would be great too.

Thanks.

Sure thing.

Titus2woman, what I’m talking about is “culture”. I know that atheists and sin has always been among us. I know that various sins that were rarely discussed in the open are now discussed and/or reported openly. I know that this can give the illusion that sin is more prevalent. However, my point is that our “culture” was Christian. The very reason why such things were not spoken of openly was because of the social condemnation that would come about in our culture. Nearly 100 years ago our society would be aghast at the notion of the majority of children being born out of wedlock. Why? Christian values in culture. While homosexuality has always been with us, it would have been unthinkable for society to embrace “gay marriage”. In fact, laws were written in many states that even condemned homosexual activity among individuals in the privacy of their own homes…the notion of gay marriage would have been thrown out instantly without debate. Why? Christian culture. To make abortion legal throughout the United States a case had to be taken to the Supreme Court. Why? Because of Christian culture. We used to value the discipline of our children. Grandparents and great grandparents can testify of a time when dad could tell them to go pick a “switch” out of the backyard and punish them with it. Today that would be ruled as “child abuse”… yet their generation was by far more respectful, law abiding, and grounded in traditional values than subsequent generations. Why was this? Because of Christian culture.

The church RETREATED and became ascetic in the Fundamentalist quest for “holiness”. In abandoning the ranks of society to become “pure” we surrendered society to the onslaught of wicked and godless social engineers. If we do not engage the fight feverishly with a righteous rage against evil our children will grow up in a society that values and celebrates married gays, shacked up straights, the right to murder one’s unborn child without discretion, child molestation defined as “love” or “experimentation”, and total moral chaos. I read an article that explained that even in Canada courts are challenging home schooling parents because they are not in the system because of their religious beliefs. Statism reigns. The notion of “God given rights” has gone out the window and now the STATE is the final arbitrator of man’s rights and morality. This is happening because the church worldwide has failed to take a fierce stand against these evils. Church has become merely a place to go to hear spiritually inspiring and self-serving messages that tickle our itching ears and aching consciences. The church has become a business wherein too many “men of God” have become idol shepherds who feed themselves on the flock. Our vision has gone from Kingdom...to campuses. The church has failed in these last two generations. But I haven’t given up on her. I believe she will grow outside the walls of the religious institutions of our day. We will become a mountain that fills all the earth.

My son is five years old. I’m terrified at the world he’s growing up in and will inherit if we don’t take a stand and turn things around. We NEED a national revival, a national spiritual awakening, a REFORMATION that will rock the foundations of our society. And only GOD can do this. I fear it will take knocking America to her knees to do so. In order for this to take place…there must be a significant collapse of our society. There has to be a danger so great that it demands a fundamental change in thinking to survive. An event that will leave the next two generations having conversations about how grandpa and grandma survived “the fall of America” and all the trials that followed. How they stood with men and women to re-stabilize and bring peace. How they struggled and worked to rebuild and gain all that they have. Conversations much like those had with those who survived the Great Depression and WWII veterans. All the opinion pieces, articles, and sermons in the world will not turn the tide. This will take the hand of God. And we need to realize that such an event would be for our benefit, not our hurt.

I also feel that in a lot of ways our pessimistic view of the future has contributed to this. I mean...why not retreat to our monastic congregations wherein we separate ourselves from society to stay "pure" if we think we have no hope of making things better? If we have no hope for revival? I've heard campaigns to oppose gay marriage and abortion in society as "polishing the brass on a sinking ship". I've even said it myself. But is defending the family (the bedrock of society) and unborn children an option??? Is it "polishing the brass on a sinking ship"? No wonder we've not made a real difference.

[Aquila]

Consider this passages:

Hebrews 1:13
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

How long shall Christ sit at the “right hand” (define it as you will theologically) before returning? The answer is, “…until I make thine enemies thy footstool”. Christ’s enemies will be subjugated through the church while He is at the right hand. Christ will return to a glorious church that has gained the victory over Hell on earth. However, it is this revival, this awakening, that will bring the satanic backlash of the end times (however one wishes to define it).

I am believing for a massive revival just prior to the end. If Futurism is correct, this revival might happen as the "Antichrist" is rising to power. If Futurism is correct, the Beast is Hell's answer to a church victorious.

(Dan 2:35 NIV) …But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

(Mat 13:31-32 NIV) He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. {32} Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."

(Mat 13:33 NIV) He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough."

(Mat 24:14 NIV) And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

(Rom 16:25-27 NIV) Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, {26} but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him-- {27} to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

(Rev 15:4 NIV) Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed." (With Preterist consideration)

We will have dominion.

[Jay]

Aquila, I understand your feelings, but we must remember that Scripture says that sin will increase, and that evil will wax worse. I agree that for too long we allowed wickedness to grow. 'Christians' abandoned the field after the Scopes trial. It was at that time that many stopped contributing any more than their vote, and in addition many listened to smooth talking politicians as they slowly corrupted the schools and government.

When I was in college I was looking through an archive of Time and Newsweek magazines. In one of the volumes, they predicted that divorce would be so common that it would cease to have a negative impact on the psychology of children, abortion would be a common practice for ending unwanted pregnancies, as well as many other statements of grave moral concern. They have so far been nearly 15 years off concerning their predictions, however each of them is coming true, with the exception that these have not produced the benefits promised.

We should be willing to stand now against all evil and wickedness. We can no longer play with the sin, wickedness, and evil that now infests our land. This means in all of its forms no matter where it is found.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jay

Aquila, I understand your feelings, but we must remember that Scripture says that sin will increase, and that evil will wax worse. I agree that for too long we allowed wickedness to grow. 'Christians' abandoned the field after the Scopes trial. It was at that time that many stopped contributing any more than their vote, and in addition many listened to smooth talking politicians as they slowly corrupted the schools and government.

When I was in college I was looking through an archive of Time and Newsweek magazines. In one of the volumes, they predicted that divorce would be so common that it would cease to have a negative impact on the psychology of children, abortion would be a common practice for ending unwanted pregnancies, as well as many other statements of grave moral concern. They have so far been nearly 15 years off concerning their predictions, however each of them is coming true, with the exception that these have not produced the benefits promised.

We should be willing to stand now against all evil and wickedness. We can no longer play with the sin, wickedness, and evil that now infests our land. This means in all of its forms no matter where it is found.

Amen!

I'd only add that while I agree that sin and wickedness will increase, simultaneously the church will expand throught the world, be felt in culture, and spread the knowledge and glory of the LORD until it covers the earth as the waters cover the sea.

It doesn't have to be an either/or situation. Have FAITH! lol

Amen.

[The Matt]

Originally Posted by aquila

sure thing.

Titus2woman, what i’m talking about is “culture”. I know that atheists and sin has always been among us. I know that various sins that were rarely discussed in the open are now discussed and/or reported openly. I know that this can give the illusion that sin is more prevalent. However, my point is that our “culture” was christian. The very reason why such things were not spoken of openly was because of the social condemnation that would come about in our culture. Nearly 100 years ago our society would be aghast at the notion of the majority of children being born out of wedlock. Why? Christian values in culture. While homosexuality has always been with us, it would have been unthinkable for society to embrace “gay marriage”. In fact, laws were written in many states that even condemned homosexual activity among individuals in the privacy of their own homes…the notion of gay marriage would have been thrown out instantly without debate. Why? Christian culture. To make abortion legal throughout the united states a case had to be taken to the supreme court. Why? Because of christian culture. We used to value the discipline of our children. Grandparents and great grandparents can testify of a time when dad could tell them to go pick a “switch” out of the backyard and punish them with it. Today that would be ruled as “child abuse”… yet their generation was by far more respectful, law abiding, and grounded in traditional values than subsequent generations. Why was this? Because of christian culture.

The church retreated and became ascetic in the fundamentalist quest for “holiness”. In abandoning the ranks of society to become “pure” we surrendered society to the onslaught of wicked and godless social engineers. If we do not engage the fight feverishly with a righteous rage against evil our children will grow up in a society that values and celebrates married gays, shacked up straights, the right to murder one’s unborn child without discretion, child molestation defined as “love” or “experimentation”, and total moral chaos. I read an article that explained that even in canada courts are challenging home schooling parents because they are not in the system because of their religious beliefs. Statism reigns. The notion of “god given rights” has gone out the window and now the state is the final arbitrator of man’s rights and morality. This is happening because the church worldwide has failed to take a fierce stand against these evils. Church has become merely a place to go to hear spiritually inspiring and self-serving messages that tickle our itching ears and aching consciences. The church has become a business wherein too many “men of god” have become idol shepherds who feed themselves on the flock. Our vision has gone from kingdom...to campuses. The church has failed in these last two generations. But i haven’t given up on her. I believe she will grow outside the walls of the religious institutions of our day. We will become a mountain that fills all the earth.

My son is five years old. I’m terrified at the world he’s growing up in and will inherit if we don’t take a stand and turn things around. We need a national revival, a national spiritual awakening, a reformation that will rock the foundations of our society. And only god can do this. I fear it will take knocking america to her knees to do so. In order for this to take place…there must be a significant collapse of our society. There has to be a danger so great that it demands a fundamental change in thinking to survive. An event that will leave the next two generations having conversations about how grandpa and grandma survived “the fall of america” and all the trials that followed. How they stood with men and women to re-stabilize and bring peace. How they struggled and worked to rebuild and gain all that they have. Conversations much like those had with those who survived the great depression and wwii veterans. All the opinion pieces, articles, and sermons in the world will not turn the tide. This will take the hand of god. And we need to realize that such an event would be for our benefit, not our hurt.

I also feel that in a lot of ways our pessimistic view of the future has contributed to this. I mean...why not retreat to our monastic congregations wherein we separate ourselves from society to stay "pure" if we think we have no hope of making things better? If we have no hope for revival? I've heard campaigns to oppose gay marriage and abortion in society as "polishing the brass on a sinking ship". I've even said it myself. But is defending the family (the bedrock of society) and unborn children an option??? Is it "polishing the brass on a sinking ship"? No wonder we've not made a real difference.

*clap clap clap clap whistles* whoooooooo!

[Roagiesgal]

I have to start by saying I have not read all the posts, so don't know if anyone addressed this or not...children born out of wedlock is better than abortion! Over 50 Million babies have died at the hands of abortion doctors (I hesitate to call them doctors) While it is tragic that families are so fragmented, and few fathers are in the home anymore, I still would rather a child is born, then murdered in the womb. I am a birth Mother, I gave my child up for adoption, it was the most painful thing I ever had to do, don't know if I would do it now looking back, but I am so grateful I didn't abort her. We were re-united when she was grown, and if I had murdered her I would not have had a second chance. I didn't know the Lord when I was young, but I do now and again I am grateful she is alive!