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  #31  
Old 06-01-2011, 05:01 PM
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Re: Eternal/Temporary torture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson View Post
If the wicked perish either by complete destruction or by being in a place of torment for all eternity,how can they be reconciled to Christ in a perishing state ?
Do you know Willie C, Scott?
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  #32  
Old 06-01-2011, 07:57 PM
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Re: Eternal/Temporary torture

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Originally Posted by crakjak View Post
I never said that "torture" is good, so no contradiction.

Muslims believe in ET, I use the same arguments with them, so your argument with atheists doesn't establish anything.
If Torture is NOT Good then what does that say of someone that tortures somebody for any length of time in your view?

The fact that you use the same argument with Muslims is irrelevant. It's still a subjective argument not matter who you use it with
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  #33  
Old 06-01-2011, 10:33 PM
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Re: Eternal/Temporary torture

Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak View Post
Do you know Willie C, Scott?
Willie C I can't place him.
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  #34  
Old 06-01-2011, 11:23 PM
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Re: Eternal/Temporary torture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson View Post
Willie C I can't place him.
Willie Cripps?
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  #35  
Old 06-02-2011, 12:35 AM
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Re: Eternal/Temporary torture

How about Wile Coyote, SOOOOOOOPer Genius?
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #36  
Old 06-02-2011, 12:47 AM
Jason B Jason B is offline
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Re: Eternal/Temporary torture

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Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
Killing an innocent person for someone else's sins is evil, too. Isn't it?
Whose innocent?
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  #37  
Old 06-02-2011, 08:55 AM
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Re: Eternal/Temporary torture

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Originally Posted by Jason Badejo View Post
Whose innocent?
Babies?

And in the case of the Exodus, all the citizens of Egypt were innocent of the sin being punished; namely, Pharaoh's refusal to let Moses take his people on a three day trip (*snicker*).
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  #38  
Old 06-02-2011, 09:06 AM
LUKE2447 LUKE2447 is offline
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Re: Eternal/Temporary torture

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Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
Killing an innocent person for someone else's sins is evil, too. Isn't it?
which is why REformed view of atonement is questioned by. Covenant Atonement views and others... Don't agree with some conclusions but it will help you.

Ransom to Satan: This view sees the atonement of Christ as a ransom paid to Satan to purchase man’s freedom and release him from being enslaved to Satan. It is based on a belief that man’s spiritual condition is bondage to Satan and that the meaning of Christ’s death was to secure God’s victory over Satan. This theory has little, if any, scriptural support and has had few supporters throughout church history. It is unbiblical in that it sees Satan, rather than God, as the one who required that a payment be made for sin. Thus, it completely ignores the demands of God’s justice as seen throughout Scripture. It also has a higher view of Satan than it should and views him as having more power than he really does. There is no scriptural support for the idea that sinners owe anything to Satan, but throughout Scripture we see that God is the One who requires a payment for sin.

Recapitulation Theory: This theory states that the atonement of Christ has reversed the course of mankind from disobedience to obedience. It believes that Christ’s life recapitulated all the stages of human life and in doing so reversed the course of disobedience initiated by Adam. This theory cannot be supported scripturally.

Dramatic Theory: This view sees the atonement of Christ as securing the victory in a divine conflict between good and evil and winning man’s release from bondage to Satan. The meaning of Christ’s death was to ensure God’s victory over Satan and to provide a way to redeem the world out of its bondage to evil.

Mystical Theory: The mystical theory sees the atonement of Christ as a triumph over His own sinful nature through the power of the Holy Spirit. Those who hold this view believe that knowledge of this will mystically influence man and awake his “god-consciousness.” They also believe that man’s spiritual condition is not the result of sin but simply a lack of “god-consciousness.” Clearly, this is unbiblical. To believe this, one must believe that Christ had a sin nature, while Scripture is clear that Jesus was the perfect God-man, sinless in every aspect of His nature (Hebrews 4:15).

Moral Influence Theory: This is the belief that the atonement of Christ is a demonstration of God’s love which causes man’s heart to soften and repent. Those who hold this view believe that man is spiritually sick and in need of help and that man is moved to accept God’s forgiveness by seeing God’s love for man. They believe that the purpose and meaning of Christ’s death was to demonstrate God’s love toward man. While it is true that Christ’s atonement is the ultimate example of the love of God, this view is unbiblical because it denies the true spiritual condition of man—dead in transgressions and sins (Ephesians 2:1)—and denies that God actually requires a payment for sin. This view of Christ’s atonement leaves mankind without a true sacrifice or payment for sin.

Example Theory: This view sees the atonement of Christ as simply providing an example of faith and obedience to inspire man to be obedient to God. Those who hold this view believe that man is spiritually alive and that Christ’s life and atonement were simply an example of true faith and obedience and should serve as inspiration to men to live a similar life of faith and obedience. This and the moral influence theory are similar in that they both deny that God’s justice actually requires payment for sin and that Christ’s death on the cross was that payment. The main difference between the moral influence theory and the example theory is that the moral influence theory says that Christ’s death teaches us how much God loves us and the example theory says that Christ’s death teaches how to live. Of course, it is true that Christ is an example for us to follow, even in His death, but the example theory fails to recognize man’s true spiritual condition and that God’s justice requires payment for sin which man is not capable of paying.

Commercial Theory: The commercial theory views the atonement of Christ as bringing infinite honor to God. This resulted in God giving Christ a reward which He did not need, and Christ passed that reward on to man. Those who hold this view believe that man’s spiritual condition is that of dishonoring God and so Christ’s death, which brought infinite honor to God, can be applied to sinners for salvation. This theory, like many of the others, denies the true spiritual state of unregenerate sinners and their need of a completely new nature, available only in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Governmental Theory: This view sees the atonement of Christ as demonstrating God’s high regard for His law and His attitude toward sin. It is through Christ’s death that God has a reason to forgive the sins of those who repent and accept Christ’s substitutionary death. Those who hold this view believe that man’s spiritual condition is as one who has violated God’s moral law and that the meaning of Christ’s death was to be a substitute for the penalty of sin. Because Christ paid the penalty for sin, it is possible for God to legally forgive those who accept Christ as their substitute. This view falls short in that it does not teach that Christ actually paid the penalty of the actual sins of any people, but instead His suffering simply showed mankind that God’s laws were broken and that some penalty was paid.

http://www.gotquestions.org/atonement-theories.html

Penal Substitution Theory: This theory sees the atonement of Christ as being a vicarious, substitutionary sacrifice that satisfied the demands of God’s justice upon sin. With His sacrifice, Christ paid the penalty of man’s sin, bringing forgiveness, imputing righteousness, and reconciling man to God. Those who hold this view believe that every aspect of man—his mind, will, and emotions—have been corrupted by sin and that man is totally depraved and spiritually dead. This view holds that Christ’s death paid the penalty for sin and that through faith man can accept Christ’s substitution as payment for sin. This view of the atonement aligns most accurately with Scripture in its view of sin, the nature of man, and the results of the death of Christ on the cross.

Last edited by LUKE2447; 06-02-2011 at 09:10 AM.
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  #39  
Old 06-02-2011, 10:42 AM
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Re: Eternal/Temporary torture

Thanks, Luke. Yes, there are many ways to think of the atonement, and that is one of the things I had in mind with my question. But there is also the slaughtering of children to punish Pharaoh, etc.
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  #40  
Old 06-02-2011, 12:23 PM
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Re: Eternal/Temporary torture

Too many pigeonholing theories.

Why not read the bible and pray for direction in the scriptures? Why always a pigeonhole?
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