John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Staysharp,

I understand your point of view now.

How do you interpret the scriptures that point to GOD hardening Pharoah's heart?

How do you interpret the scriptures that clearly state that GOD knows who are His?

How do you interpret the scripture that no one can come unto the Father unless the Spirit draws them?

If we are a chosen generation and a royal priesthood, who chose us and who has annointed us? Was there a time that GOD did not know that we would be chosen and anointed?


From what I have heard from MacArthur, there is not any fear mongering in his sermons. There are clear declarations to depart form sin. He presents scriptural concepts for living in a way that is applicable today.


John MacArthur is no more POLYTHEISTIC than we are UNITARIAN.

the scripture tells us why; Romans 9:7 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

No doubt; God uses who he chooses and with regard to His call to satisfy His divine purpose, yes he calls whom he chooses. No debate there. The problem is salvation, not one of a specific task for a specific reason.

Jesus said..."if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"...Calvary is the voice of God calling every human being back to God.

The generation of the Apostles was chosen for the specific task of delivering the message of Christ and saving the Jewish people before the destruction of Jerusalem. This generation shall not pass away...etc. Save yourself from this untoward generation...this was Peter's plea to those who murdered Christ.

Understand I am not saying McArthur isn't a man of God, etc. I am saying some of the doctrines he espouses IMO are unbiblical and damaging to love.

Truth is you can preach all you want to about sin, but until someone falls in love with Christ and his body, the selfishness will continue. The antidote for sin is God's love exampled by Christ. God's Agape love places others above yourself...loving God and others more than you love yourself; the first and greatest of all commands...one will rarely sin against others when he places them first; by loving them according to God's definition of love...1 Cor 13.

Evil is simply the absence of God's love.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by staysharp

the scripture tells us why; Romans 9:7 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

No doubt; God uses who he chooses and with regard to His call to satisfy His divine purpose, yes he calls whom he chooses. No debate there. The problem is salvation, not one of a specific task for a specific reason.

Jesus said..."if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"...Calvary is the voice of God calling every human being back to God.

The generation of the Apostles was chosen for the specific task of delivering the message of Christ and saving the Jewish people before the destruction of Jerusalem. This generation shall not pass away...etc. Save yourself from this untoward generation...this was Peter's plea to those who murdered Christ.

Understand I am not saying McArthur isn't a man of God, etc. I am saying some of the doctrines he espouses IMO are unbiblical and damaging to love.

Truth is you can preach all you want to about sin, but until someone falls in love with Christ and his body, the selfishness will continue. The antidote for sin is God's love exampled by Christ. God's Agape love places others above yourself...loving God and others more than you love yourself; the first and greatest of all commands...one will rarely sin against others when he places them first; by loving them according to God's definition of love...1 Cor 13.

Evil is simply the absence of God's love.

Even still, God has given us free will. Does He not know the end from the beginning-- those who will use their free will to succesfully resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit?

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Even still, God has given us free will. Does He not know the end from the beginning-- those who will use their free will to succesfully resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit?

yup, that's called rebellion...the nation of Israel repeatedly resisted the drawing of God. a true dyed in the wool Calvanist doesn't embrace free will, but rather "irresistible grace" which is a fancy word for "god will get u if he really wants to"...

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I was listening to a John MacArthur audio earlier today and he made a statement to the effect that:

"The coucnil of the Trinity decided who would be redeemed before the creation of the world."

I like alot of MacArthur's stuff, though there are some areas of disagreement. And I personally don't think that trinitarians are going to hell simply because their trinitarians, anymore than oneness are going to hell because their oneness.

Those things said, when I often hear trinitarians adamently deny they worship "3 gods" and sling mud on oneness people by saying we are sladering them, offering strawman arguments, and the such like. They normally ATTEMPT to choose their words carefully so as not to use the words "seperate" and "beings" and the such like when debating/discussing with a oneness person, BUT when the arena is not a godhead debate they make statements such as this, which to my mind are completely irrational and foolish...IF you want to claim to be strictly monotheistic.

How can a trinitarina TRULY say the believe "Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD" and at the same refer to the "one God" as a COUNCIL who decided TOGETHER who would be the elect (saved) before the creation?

PS-how does that work, before creation, mankind has not been created yet, does the "holy trinity" draw straws, a names out of hat, what? On what basis is one choosen to inherit eternal life, and the other eternal damnation?

Here's what I think of that doctrine

I can't speak for MacArthur, but that terminology is actually Biblical. The problem appears to be that you heard "council" when MacArthur was no doubt saying "counsel."

I'm willing to bet just from what you've said, that the text for MacArthur's message (at least this portion of it) was from the First Chapter of Ephesians. Ephesians 1:1-12, speaks of the "predestination" of God's "elect.' It is a portion of Scripture that a lot of Evangelical ministers will often turn to when preaching about predestination.

Read the passage again, especially Ephesians 1:11, and see if that doesn't help to settle everyone's stomach. I doubt very much that even MacArthur views the "Godhead" as a "council."

"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."

Ephesians 1:11

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by staysharp

yup, that's called rebellion...the nation of Israel repeatedly resisted the drawing of God. a true dyed in the wool Calvanist doesn't embrace free will, but rather "irresistible grace" which is a fancy word for "god will get u if he really wants to"...

This is really a different topic than the opener... but, Hey! Who cares, right?

staysharp, if God really "wanted to get you" - do you think you would be able to resist?

He is God, after all. He does do "all things after the counsel of His will." If He "wants" you - you're gonna be His.

[johnny44]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Me, myself and I?

And your shadow.

[johnny44]

Originally Posted by Sam

Isn't a Trinitarina an Italian lady who believes in the trinity?

No,its a trinitarian ballerina who dances and glides all over the .................

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I can't speak for MacArthur, but that terminology is actually Biblical. The problem appears to be that you heard "council" when MacArthur was no doubt saying "counsel."

I'm willing to bet just from what you've said, that the text for MacArthur's message (at least this portion of it) was from the First Chapter of Ephesians. Ephesians 1:1-12, speaks of the "predestination" of God's "elect.' It is a portion of Scripture that a lot of Evangelical ministers will often turn to when preaching about predestination.

Read the passage again, especially Ephesians 1:11, and see if that doesn't help to settle everyone's stomach. I doubt very much that even MacArthur views the "Godhead" as a "council."

"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."

Ephesians 1:11

Perhaps Pel. The message was on Ephesians 1, however, with the context he used, I tend to think He MEANT "council", though I'd have to listen to it again, and I'm not in the mood at the moment.

One reason that I lean towards "council" is MacArthur is believes in a VERY defined godhead of persons. He has made statements and written things that I am just amazed by. I have been reading his book on Romans ch. 1-8 (540 pages) and he has made several statements along the same tritheistic lines.

I'm not posting this in ill will or anti Macarthur. I like his stuff enough to use in my sig line.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I can't speak for MacArthur, but that terminology is actually Biblical. The problem appears to be that you heard "council" when MacArthur was no doubt saying "counsel."

I'm willing to bet just from what you've said, that the text for MacArthur's message (at least this portion of it) was from the First Chapter of Ephesians. Ephesians 1:1-12, speaks of the "predestination" of God's "elect.' It is a portion of Scripture that a lot of Evangelical ministers will often turn to when preaching about predestination.

Read the passage again, especially Ephesians 1:11, and see if that doesn't help to settle everyone's stomach. I doubt very much that even MacArthur views the "Godhead" as a "council."

"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."

Ephesians 1:11

Pel, I listened to it again. There is no doubt he says "council" in fact he says it plural "councils"

"How does church growth theory fit into that?
Soverign election has already been determined, it has determined who will be saved, and constitute the regenerate church. That was done in the councilS of the trinity before time began."

gty.org sermon #gty114 @ the 1:04:00-1:03:00 mark

I guess you can quit ripping me over my reaction now.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Pel, I listened to it again. There is no doubt he says "council" in fact he says it plural "councils"

"How does church growth theory fit into that?
Soverign election has already been determined, it has determined who will be saved, and constitute the regenerate church. That was done in the councilS of the trinity before time began."

gty.org sermon #gty114 @ the 1:04:00-1:03:00 mark

I guess you can quit ripping me over my reaction now.

If he is teaching from Ephesians 1, then I would lean very heavily on the idea that he said, "counselS of the Trinity..." Suppose we could ask him.

I'm not trying to defend this particular view, just saying that there is a bit of a difference here in the extremities to which a person might go with their rather inherently tri-theistic terminology. This is a big reason that I personally don't use the word "Persons" to describe the nature of God.

God's nature is complex, particularly in the ways in which we as humans perceive Him; however He is still One.