John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?

[Jason B]

I was listening to a John MacArthur audio earlier today and he made a statement to the effect that:

"The coucnil of the Trinity decided who would be redeemed before the creation of the world."

I like alot of MacArthur's stuff, though there are some areas of disagreement. And I personally don't think that trinitarians are going to hell simply because their trinitarians, anymore than oneness are going to hell because their oneness.

Those things said, when I often hear trinitarians adamently deny they worship "3 gods" and sling mud on oneness people by saying we are sladering them, offering strawman arguments, and the such like. They normally ATTEMPT to choose their words carefully so as not to use the words "seperate" and "beings" and the such like when debating/discussing with a oneness person, BUT when the arena is not a godhead debate they make statements such as this, which to my mind are completely irrational and foolish...IF you want to claim to be strictly monotheistic.

How can a trinitarina TRULY say the believe "Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD" and at the same refer to the "one God" as a COUNCIL who decided TOGETHER who would be the elect (saved) before the creation?

PS-how does that work, before creation, mankind has not been created yet, does the "holy trinity" draw straws, a names out of hat, what? On what basis is one choosen to inherit eternal life, and the other eternal damnation?

Here's what I think of that doctrine

[TGBTG]

First off, like you said, I don't believe Trinitarians are going to hell (because of 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God)

However, on paper Trinity is 1 God, BUT IN PRACTICE, it is 3 Gods (I know they use persons...)

Take for instance, when a pastor preaches on:
Why we worship the Father, Why we worship the Son, and Why we worship the Holy Spirit? Any non-religious person would definitely think of 3 Gods, IMO

[TGBTG]

Does anyone know how the positions in the trinity were determined? How do they know that the Father is the 1st person, Son is 2nd person, and Holy Spirit is 3rd person?

As in could the Son be the 1st person, the Holy Spirit the 2nd person, and the Father the 3rd person (Hope you get my drift...)

Links or Scriptures (preferably scriptures). Thanks

[SRM]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Does anyone know how the positions in the trinity were determined? How do they know that the Father is the 1st person, Son is 2nd person, and Holy Spirit is 3rd person?

As in could the Son be the 1st person, the Holy Spirit the 2nd person, and the Father the 3rd person (Hope you get my drift...)

Links or Scriptures (preferably scriptures). Thanks

I recommend a book that will help you in your quest...WHEN JESUS BECAME GOD by Richard E Rubeinstein

[Praxeas]

As has been stated, Trinitarianism on paper is Monotheistic. However when Trinitarians try to argue the Trinity or rather against other theologies like Oneness, they often end up describing the persons as though they were separate beings

[shag]

A day or 2 ago, I was driving home listening to mr. bible answer man H.H. on the radio. He was making the point of how it was actually God the Father that crucified God the Son, (not so much the jews that put him on the cross, or the romans that drove the nails...)

I dont recall him ever referring to Jesus as the Son of God during that broadcast, but always God the Son.

[Sam]

"The Bible says that in the beginning there was only God. He has always been. God has no beginning and no ending. There were no sun, no stars, no planets, no Earth --and no people.There was just God But He was not alone, because God is really three persons --God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three together are God."
I Believe in Jesus
Leading Your Child to Christ
by John MacArthur copyright 1999

The way that Dr. MacArthur says that --that God was "not alone, because God is really three persons" sounds almost tri-theistic, doesn't it?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Sam

"The Bible says that in the beginning there was only God. He has always been. God has no beginning and no ending. There were no sun, no stars, no planets, no Earth --and no people.There was just God But He was not alone, because God is really three persons --God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three together are God."
I Believe in Jesus
Leading Your Child to Christ
by John MacArthur copyright 1999

The way that Dr. MacArthur says that --that God was "not alone, because God is really three persons" sounds almost tri-theistic, doesn't it?

Me, myself and I?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Sam

"The Bible says that in the beginning there was only God. He has always been. God has no beginning and no ending. There were no sun, no stars, no planets, no Earth --and no people.There was just God But He was not alone, because God is really three persons --God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three together are God."
I Believe in Jesus
Leading Your Child to Christ
by John MacArthur copyright 1999

The way that Dr. MacArthur says that --that God was "not alone, because God is really three persons" sounds almost tri-theistic, doesn't it?

Absolutely. (Again, I'm not bashing him, he's one of my favorite preachers and authors)

But language and terminology like that would be a HUGE stumbling block to me if I were a Jew considering Christianity. I honestly do not think thats how Paul or Peter or any early Jewish person viewed the godhead.

I think it is the product of gentile philosphy and ignorance. I truly (without any arrogance intended) believe that the oneness doctrine maintains a much more primitive and biblical idea of God.

I'm also honest enough to say, no one has God and the incarnation figured out to a science, and I don't believe you have to be a theologian or Christalogian (aka Godhead Ninja) to be saved. I believe you can be saved with bad doctrine, so long as you live a truly repented life of faith in the Jesus Christ, trusting in his atoning death for sin and subsequent ressurection.

But I get really sick and tired and beaten down with this trinitarian drivel that isn't found in scripture. This kind of stuff isn't scriptural based, its seminary based. If the Bible wasn't so adament about there only being one God, some of these folks would have absolutely no problem saying there were "three gods" though they deny. Didn't Flavius Justin (Martyr) use the language "two gods" when referring to the Father and the Logos?

Anyway, I know that not all trinitarians believe the trinity the same way, some have a very oneness view of God, while using very trinitarian terminology. Also some oneness people have some wacky ideas too, so thats a sword that cuts both ways.

My point in this thread was that even the most respected trinitarian ministers definetely use language that validates some of the claims which oneness people have laid to their charge, and they have cried "foul!" all the while they speak of a supposed (one) God as a "council" and "NOT alone".

I guess if you have enough of a majority you can say anything. Kind of like wal mart saying they have the lowest prices over and over, when in fact they don't. (had to throw that reference in from my secular point of view)

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I was listening to a John MacArthur audio earlier today and he made a statement to the effect that:

"The coucnil of the Trinity decided who would be redeemed before the creation of the world."

I like alot of MacArthur's stuff, though there are some areas of disagreement. And I personally don't think that trinitarians are going to hell simply because their trinitarians, anymore than oneness are going to hell because their oneness.

Those things said, when I often hear trinitarians adamently deny they worship "3 gods" and sling mud on oneness people by saying we are sladering them, offering strawman arguments, and the such like. They normally ATTEMPT to choose their words carefully so as not to use the words "seperate" and "beings" and the such like when debating/discussing with a oneness person, BUT when the arena is not a godhead debate they make statements such as this, which to my mind are completely irrational and foolish...IF you want to claim to be strictly monotheistic.

How can a trinitarina TRULY say the believe "Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD" and at the same refer to the "one God" as a COUNCIL who decided TOGETHER who would be the elect (saved) before the creation?

PS-how does that work, before creation, mankind has not been created yet, does the "holy trinity" draw straws, a names out of hat, what? On what basis is one choosen to inherit eternal life, and the other eternal damnation?

Here's what I think of that doctrine

John is a died and true reformed hyper Calvanist. His theology is mixed up IMO and he does not understand God's love. Trinitarians do not believe in 3 gods, however John is a legalist at heart which far surpasses any damage trinitarianism would ever do.