McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamation

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by n david

What's the scripture reference for this - B/C/V?

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

That being said they are no better or worse than the religious leaders of Christ day, when he said "you shut up the kingdom of God to those that would enter by your doctrines and traditions of men"

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

I thought this was the reference. But why did you add your own words and include them in the quotation? The part in bold in your first quote is not in that verse.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Raised Roman Catholic, attended Catholic instruction from the age of 7 to 11.
With all due respect the above question is funny. Trinitarianism is car mechanics, they don't update the doctrine as time goes by. The Trinity as taught by Tertullian and Athanasius is the same as defended by individuals like James White, or Gene Cook. The etymology of the word Trinity, from Latin trinus "threefold, triple," from plural of trini "three at a time. Simply meaning three in unity.
No offense taken GD, but I believe I do know what I'm saying concerning the idea of three separate coequal, co-eternal, persons working as a unified effort. First, allow me to keep this discussion on point, people who attend the Industrial Church Complex which is mostly mainstream Churchanity aren't being judged as lost, they are guys and gals all on different learning curves, while God deals with all of us on a case to case basis. Yet, the point which I would like to bring your attention to is "church" the building, the structure which isn't the body of Christ, but a location where the people gather and have a person teach and train them. It is that teacher who I refer to in this post. He is the one Pied Piping his particular tune which he attempts to lead the people to a direction he feels is the truth. If Jesus said He is the way the truth and the life, then logically the truth should not be gray, but vividly plain. If it isn't plain then then then how do we know that Jesus is the I am HE? Not the I am WE?

Where did the apostles baptize using Jesus' instructions along with Jesus name baptism?

That's false. That might be true in the Calvary Chapel, or some emergent groups, where gathering numbers is the main focus.

GD, with all due respect, I don't know what sort of church you attend, but all the ones I listed are indeed unmistakably Trinitarian in thought, and teaching. If a church uses the term Nondenominational, then they mean non doctrinal, there teachings are pretty much along the lines you posted. Yet, but I cannot imagine that the Trinity doesn't pop up in the preaching, prayers and hymns.

OK, I believe I understand where you are coming from, but please tell me under what authority did John have to refuse baptism? You do understand that many from the sect of the Pharisees did come into the early church? One famous one was Paul. So it wasn't because they were Pharisees. Also John gave some qualifications as well, he told these neophytes that they were to first bring the fruits of repentance? So, would you agree that John was a religious leader, and that it was John who was the baptizer?

I don't know if "we" had this discussion.

That's what you feel, but you really didn't offer me anything where non elders were baptizing.

Matthew 20 speaks of the apostles lording over each other, and therefore Jesus tells them that the church government will be unlike the Roman Republic. You also didn't offer your own explanation of John 20:23, Matthew 18:18. I would like to read your offering on those verses.

That is as impossible as me calling you a liar when you say that the Trinitarian church you attend doesn't outright teach and preach the Trinity as much or more than Jesus name Apostolics teach One God. You are looking at this with a bias, and you just don't know that for sure. I don't know the church you attend, and can only guess, and assume they do certain things. Same thing with the so called "mind set" you are proposing with a broad brush.

Forgive me, but I didn't post "another" church, I said other church, as the McMinnville church. You posted that you attended one of their "like" churches in Oregon for two years. Still I don't know your cousin, and his wife divorces him because of a pastor, a grocer, her psychiatrist, her doctor, her girlfriends, her college professor? I know of all such cases, but you want to know why these individuals were able to brake up the marriage? Because there were already weak spots in the unity of the couple. With all due respect my brother, I don't know what happened with your cousin, but I know a whole lot of situations where outside idiocy influenced men and women to leave a marriage. Yet, the marriage was already scuttled before the outside influence came along. Still I'm not saying this is the case with your cousin.

So, Preterist Walls of Shame are a good thing?

No one is getting both sides of the story, are there bad men in the world? Yes, are all ministers who believe in a certain way of attire, tithing, one man leadership evil? There are some really cool godly people out there, and to chase everyone up to the windmill with torches and pitchforks is unwise.

Two years you sat under someone who did something you didn't agree with? You had a cousin who was in a "similar" situation so therefore anyone who even remotely looks like them, they don't stand a snowball's chance? OK.
Sadly GD, sometimes we shut up the kingdom all by ourselves.

No Sadly you don't get it, you would have to live in this area for a period of time to get it.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

In truth I have never heard of folks charging to do work around the church?

If they were volunteering to begin with(likely they were), how can they go back and demand pay?...kinda weird.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Wow, all I can say is either I am not getting my point across, or someone simply has an agenda of their own, that they can't see the forest for the trees.

GD, your point was made crystal clear, as far as an agenda we all have some sort of agenda. If we didn't we would all be just smiling and waving at each other.

But Loren, what is really something to wow about, is that you aren't wanting to understand where I'm coming from on this issue. Can't see the forest for the trees? Has an agenda so they refuse to except your new and better way of being a "real" Christian? No offense, but did you really crawl out of the tar pit and leave all us Mammoths behind? You sound as if you were sitting under the some kind of Nicer Than Jesus bodhi tree and became enlightened, therefore you need to pass your enlightenment on to others?

Again, please I mean no offense but I wouldn't sit under a psycho preacher (been there done that) nor would I sit under a Trinitarian preacher, because he is teaching nothing but utter garbage. Sorry to sound so harsh in posting to you, please I mean you no offense, but this is a little more than me having some agenda to defend the religious candy stick.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

That you are doing exactly what you accuse me of, grouping all non oneness churches as full all out trinitarians.

Really? You are talking strictly concerning behavior of ministers, I believe I was talking about Trinitarian pastor teachers, and Trinitarian denominations which teach doctrine of God being three separate individuals but working together as a unified effort.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

What you were taught in Caticism class on the definition of the trinity is not the way the majority of people understand the trinity.

Majority of "people?" GD, did you read where I posted concerning the attendees of a Trinitarian church or organization? Did you read where I defined who we are discussing concerning the understanding of the Trinity? We should be talking about preachers? Right? We shouldn't be talking about Brothers Boudreaux & Thibodeaux and how they view the godhead.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

And you might know this if you did not only try to prove them wrong but actually sat down with them and discussed the doctrine with them.
Ah well what am I doing, some subjects just cannot be discussed with some people.

Really Loren? It's like that?

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

For that matter where do scripture actually depict the apostles actually dunking a baptize? The baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch? The only thing you can determine from that is they both went into the water, and the eunuch professed his faith in Christ.

How did the above answer my question? OK, where in the New Testament did the apostles USE the instructions of Jesus and the use of Jesus' name over a neophyte?

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Really the oneness standby phrase, "let down the standards and doctrines and get more people". That is so not true, I can't believe people believe that. These so called emergent groups dropped holiness standards because they simply do not believe they are bible, and the same goes for the wording of the trinity, because they do not teach it as do the orthodox churches.

Wow, you aren't having a discussion with me? You are having a discussion with the apostolic movement. Brother, I didn't say anything about standards. My comment was concerning growth and not making THEOLOGY the issue. Blending everything together where you don't emphasize of doctrine, but emphasize teaching on Godly living. Isn't that what YOU posted?

Please review the below quote.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

In the last 10 years attending a trinitarian church I have not once heard teaching of the trinity. They center their teaching on Godly living not so called doctrinal issues as do oneness.

Standards mentioned? By you or by me? No, we are talking about TEACHING that God is three persons unified as one. I'm focusing on teachers who are Trinitarians teaching people their doctrine, and you are focusing on One God ministers who are bad and do bad things, and therefore any minister who is remotely like these "bad Oneness" ministers are bad themselves. I on the other hand am trying to tell you that a Trinitarian preacher will teach his congregation that God is triune that Jesus is the second person in the triune godhead. That's what WE are posting to each other about.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

EB with all due respect, it is all your imagination, because you have not attended one.

Here is a WOW for you.

Again, GD you are not having a discussion with me, you are having a discussion with a movement, an organization, Mr Oneness of Loren's mind.

Never attended, don't know anyone who is a Trinitarian preacher, priest, never sat in a Trinitarian seminary? GD, you are no longer having a discussion with me personally, just posting to what you believe I represent.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

As a matter of fact for the last 8 years I have attended one of those nondenominational churches and the two years before that an Assembly of God church. And in all that time not once did I hear any teaching on the trinity or reference to the trinity.

I have an acquaintance who is Assembly of God preacher, and he staunch Trinitarian. Listen to BBN on the car radio, plus Moody Broadcasting and everyone from D James Kennedy to Dr David Jeremiah all speak about the Trinity. Not once? Not once while you were sitting in the pew did you ever hear an Assembly of God preacher speak or mention anything about the Trinity. Let's just say I am highly doubtful, and since we have no other witness then yourself to come forward with this testimony, allow me to be skeptical.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

And I will say this, I have heard more deeper teaching from the word of God in that time than 46 years in oneness.

Really?

How many oneness congregations did you attend, how many Apostolic Bible teachers did you study with?

So, the church you are in now teaches Fulfilled Eschatology? Or did you learn any of what you know today from any One God Jesus name preacher? Have you gleaned any new information from a Jesus name preacher? What eschatology does your current church hold to? What did they teach you about your current belief on eschatology. I'm just curious.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

No you don't know where I am coming from, the first thing is you term John as a religious leader.

lead·er
ˈlēdər noun
1. the person who leads or commands a group.

John 1:35

Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

John 1:37

And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

Acts 19:1

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Acts 19:3

And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

So, let's see, he was a leader, because he had disciples.

dis·ci·ple
dəˈsīpəl/
noun
a personal follower of Jesus during his life, especially one of the twelve Apostles.
synonyms: apostle, follower
"the disciples of Jesus"
a follower or student of a teacher, leader, or philosopher.
"a disciple of Rousseau"

Yep, John the Baptist was a religious leader.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

John was a prophet come to prepare the way of the Lord, calling the nation to repentance, that they would believe on the one that would come after him. Of course he would call for fruits of repentance, his baptism was after all unto repentance.

So, as a religious elder, he was in his rights to make sure those he baptized were capable to produce what HE was looking for?

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

But a religious leader, no wonder we have such a scewed sense of what it means to be an leader in the kingdom of God.

No, there is no WE here friend, maybe you, not WE. I have never heard anyone try to refute John as a religious leader. You know why? Because John had students who followed John. In John 3:22-23 John and Jesus both were baptizing at the same time. John didn't stop baptizing, but continued in his TEACHING, but he understood that it would diminish and that Jesus' would increase. Again, there is no we in this conversation, because I sure don't believe the way you accuse me.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Let me be perfectly clear, God gave gifts to the body, to equip the body to do ministry work and edify the body. Eph. 4
This is no different that what Paul wrote to the Cor. church in chapter 12 other than Paul broadened the gifts. One should note before adding to much authority to these gifts the definition of these gifts we call offices. Firstly an apostle is simply one that is sent. Sent to what? The eleven were sent to proclaim the Gospel to the Jews. Paul was sent to proclaim the gospel to the Gentiles. A prophet was an inspired speaker, and a teacher was just that, one that taught. In none of this does it give anyone of these the authority over the rest of the body. All of these gifts were given to inspire, equip, and edify the body to minister.

All these gifts were given to ministers to build up the body, not to create a knitting circle. The Greek found translated as authority ἐπιταγή means to COMMAND in Titus 2:15. Could you explain why?



1st Timothy 5:20

Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.


2nd Timothy 4:2

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Titus 1:13-14

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Titus 2:15

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

There is a whole thread on the subject of baptism, I started a year or two ago.

Dear brother, honestly, I don't read every single thread in the forum.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Who performed the baptism of the 3000 on the day Pentecost? Or the 5000 after that?

Klingons from Memory Alpha?


Brother, we don't teach from silence. Are you falling back towards futurism which teaches from silence to prove a doctrine?

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Of course that is not an entirely impossible feat in an 8 hour day.

But that would be if my math is right, about 6 baptisms a minute for 3000.

Can you imagine those two baptismal services. Of course theologians have speculated on how that was done, for some time.

Amen, and therefore I will speculate that it was the twelve with those who were with Jesus' ministry who were of the 70 elders who Jesus ordained Luke 10:1, ministers where they possibly found Matthias the replacement for Judas Acts 1:12-26.

Matthew 20 speaks of the apostles lording over each other, and therefore Jesus tells them that the church government will be unlike the Roman Republic. You also didn't offer your own explanation of John 20:23, Matthew 18:18. I would like to read your offering on those verses.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

So you are assuming that because of the wording in verse 23 that God would set one on the right hand and one on the left hand, that would have more authority over the rest? Even in the face of the next words of Christ in verses 25-28.
and
2Ti_2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
and
Rev_5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Ok so please identify those two that the father sat at the right and left hand of Christ.

The right and left were positions on either side of His crucifixion. Jesus speaks of a baptism which He was yet to be baptized with, a bitter cup which He was to drink from. Jesus is telling the mother of the sons of Zebedee, that the place was chosen already. Yet her son James would be the first of the 12 to be martyred by beheading Acts 12:2.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Really, as an evangelist, you see the surface of an individual church, one does not see the faults unless one attends for any length of time. We can go around and round on this but the fact is, out here in the north west, this particular faction of churches are as alike as Mormons or Jehovah witnesses.

Comparing any apostolic Jesus name church to the strict religious guidelines of the Kingdom Hall and the LDS system just means you don't even know how those systems work. Apostolic churches are not under those religious sanctions, they may be in a fellowship that wants everyone to wear beanies with propellers, but for the most part it is still up to the individual minister how everything gets done. Also no where in history do with have any group that only had one leader run everything. dictatorships must have oligarchs to help the one leader stay in control. No matter if it was Jimmy Jones, Adolf Hitler or Henry VIII of England. To say that yo know that all these guys are controlling devils, is just your opinion. Why can't you see that?

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

And lest it has not been said, I have been in the UPCI my entire life and lived in the state of Washington/Oregon that whole time. And in this area there were up till about 10-15 years ago three divisions of churches before this group broke off and formed their own organization. This group was and still is the most controlling legalistic group of the three I mentioned. This group is such a tight nit group that feeds off of each other, if you have a hard time believing that, that is your prerogative.

It is not that I have a hard time believing anything, but for me to say "wow you are right all those guys are dirt bags." I don't know that! Why should I be made to accept anything without having additional evidence from BOTH sides. When asked, "Brother B, do Jehovah Witnesses believe that Jesus is the Arch Angel Micheal?" I can say yes, because they do, I have documented proof. So, therefore if someone is a JW preacher odds are very good he believes everything Bethel teaches. But, if someone asks me, "Brother B, are all JW preachers evil hateful controlling men?" I can only say "I don't know!"

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

All I can say is that your refusal to believe what has been said about this pastor, not just influencing my cousins marriage break up but stipulating his wife divorce him because at one time he carried UPCI license is mind blowing.

Why is it mind blowing? I don't know anything about your cousin, he could be the biggest jerk that ever walked in shoe leather? Also he is your cousin, so I don't know how you defend family members? I don't know, he could stab someone and you may say they backed into the knife? Again, I don't know him, and I just know you from the forum posting on eschatology? I also don't know this pastor from Oregon. So, guess what, if it blows your mind that I don't salute everything that is read in social media, then so be it.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

And the marriage was not on the rocks as you suppose, my cousin began to not believe some of the teachings of this pastor.
This group is a cult in the strictest sense, the control they hold over their saints is mind boggling, if one has not experienced, this it is hard to fathom.

Yeah they really sound like they were in love. Yes it is sure mind boggling, and HARD to FATHOM, but it still blows your mind that I don't run off down the road with the rest of you carry torches to the preacher's home. Mind boggling indeed.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Walls of shame have nothing to do with this situation,

Oh, but they do, no one knows me who goes to that website. No one knows who I am, or what we believe. Yet, they will take the Cohen's word for it and when they meet me an opinion had already been formed. Hey, the Cohen believes Preterism and its teachers need to be exposed, so he has the vehicle to do it. You feel that these men need to be exposed so you also have the forum to voice your objections. Not everyone contacts me who sees the wall, so they walk away believing what was read. Not everyone wants proof, some people want to believe the worst. These men are devils? Then weep and pray for their souls, and hope that they will repent. Doesn't get any better than that.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

these men are cult leaders and do not have the right to be called men of God period.

Like I said, Walls of shame are a good thing?

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

This is not about strict standards this is about one man control and nothing else.

Again no one is chasing EVERYONE up to the windmill with torches and pitchforks, just this group.

Really? So, may I suggest you allow their windmill to burn, and you all come home putting them to prayer and tears. Because they are in trouble and you are not, so if this is the case then be merciful because odds are that you might be next at the wheel.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

No Sadly you don't get it, you would have to live in this area for a period of time to get it.

Sadly, I do believe I get it.

[Esaias]

I have no clue or idea or knowledge about the church in Oregon.

But judging from peoples' posts, who supposedly have first hand knowledge, I am inclined to think they believe a preacher who teaches there is a Way people ought to livr, is for that reason an evil, cultic, oppressive, mind controlling dictator hypocrite Pharisee.

Lord have mercy on them if they ever wind up in an old fashioned Baptist church, or (gasp) a charismatic "new apostolic reformation" shepherding-discipleship church.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I have no clue or idea or knowledge about the church in Oregon.

But judging from peoples' posts, who supposedly have first hand knowledge, I am inclined to think they believe a preacher who teaches there is a Way people ought to livr, is for that reason an evil, cultic, oppressive, mind controlling dictator hypocrite Pharisee.

Lord have mercy on them if they ever wind up in an old fashioned Baptist church, or (gasp) a charismatic "new apostolic reformation" shepherding-discipleship church.

Fort Lauderdale had the Shepherding Movement with Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, Charles Simpson, John Poole, and Don Basham, the whole thing blew apart due to its super odd oppressive behavior of leadership.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I have no clue or idea or knowledge about the church in Oregon.

But judging from peoples' posts, who supposedly have first hand knowledge, I am inclined to think they believe a preacher who teaches there is a Way people ought to livr, is for that reason an evil, cultic, oppressive, mind controlling dictator hypocrite Pharisee.

Lord have mercy on them if they ever wind up in an old fashioned Baptist church, or (gasp) a charismatic "new apostolic reformation" shepherding-discipleship church.

Sorry but we are not talking about a preacher that teaches there is a way people should live right, but a preacher that is controlling to the point that if you don't live by his particular set of rules you are in rebellion.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Fort Lauderdale had the Shepherding Movement with Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, Charles Simpson, John Poole, and Don Basham, the whole thing blew apart due to its super odd oppressive behavior of leadership.

I don't know this Fort Lauderdale group, but by your statement "they were a super odd oppressive leadership group" that describes this group. And this group is blowing apart, within the last 5 years with church splits, and now this thing in McMinnville, these churches are barely holding on.
And regardless to your insistence to the contrary, while I may not have meet the Davies, personally, these pastors are known in our neck of the woods, as they were part of us not many years ago, and they left our fellowship as a group.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I don't know this Fort Lauderdale group, but by your statement "they were a super odd oppressive leadership group" that describes this group.

Oh, I'm sorry, Davies is virtually unknown, if not for the news clipping and thread no one outside of you and his group would even know he exists.

But Bob Mumford, and Derek Prince are world famous. The Shepherding movement that happened here in Fort Lauderdale has been recorded in numerous publications, books, and I think a few documentaries.

Bob Mumford and Derek Prince gave interviews about their experiences within the movement, what went wrong, the role they played, as well as the others testified of their parts in the movement. That is evidence, that is physical material, witnesses, including the main players themselves. Both sides, at every side.

But what did you offer me Loren?

Your cousin?


Loren please let's move on to other things.