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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
Forgive me, I disagree, how long did you attended a trinity church?
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Raised Roman Catholic, attended Catholic instruction from the age of 7 to 11.
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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
And how long ago?
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With all due respect the above question is funny. Trinitarianism is car mechanics, they don't update the doctrine as time goes by. The Trinity as taught by Tertullian and Athanasius is the same as defended by individuals like James White, or Gene Cook. The etymology of the word Trinity, from Latin trinus "threefold, triple," from plural of trini "three at a time. Simply meaning three in unity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
If not you don't know what you are saying. Seems to me you are hung up over the term trinity, and judge them as lost based on your view of the trinity.
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No offense taken GD, but I believe I do know what I'm saying concerning the idea of three separate coequal, co-eternal, persons working as a unified effort. First, allow me to keep this discussion on point, people who attend the Industrial Church Complex which is mostly mainstream Churchanity aren't being judged as lost, they are guys and gals all on different learning curves, while God deals with all of us on a case to case basis. Yet, the point which I would like to bring your attention to is "church" the building, the structure which isn't the body of Christ, but a location where the people gather and have a person teach and train them. It is that teacher who I refer to in this post. He is the one Pied Piping his particular tune which he attempts to lead the people to a direction he feels is the truth. If Jesus said He is the way the truth and the life, then logically the truth should not be gray, but vividly plain. If it isn't plain then then then how do we know that Jesus is the I am HE? Not the I am WE?
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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
I assume you would think the church I attend at present are lost because they baptize "in the name of the father son and holy ghost which is Jesus". There are as many views and understanding of the trinity as there are of oneness.
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Where did the apostles baptize using Jesus' instructions along with Jesus name baptism? So, pretty much we just do what we feel is right and Jesus accepts whatever we throw out there? Many views? America leads the entire Christian world on the many views list. So, we just need to believe on Jesus and the rest of the information contained in the Bible is just left up to what ever we feel is OK for our particular group or culture?
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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
Just that the trinitarian churches don't make the trinity an issue as the oneness do.
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That's false. That might be true in the Calvary Chapel, or some emergent groups, where gathering numbers is the main focus. Yet, Southern Baptist, Independent Baptist, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodoxy, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Church of Christ, all are pretty stout on their stand concerning Trinitarianism.
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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
In the last 10 years attending a trinitarian church I have not once heard teaching of the trinity. They center their teaching on Godly living not so called doctrinal issues as do oneness.
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GD, with all due respect, I don't know what sort of church you attend, but all the ones I listed are indeed unmistakably Trinitarian in thought, and teaching. If a church uses the term Nondenominational, then they mean non doctrinal, there teachings are pretty much along the lines you posted. Yet, but I cannot imagine that the Trinity doesn't pop up in the preaching, prayers and hymns.
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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
Sorry again I disagree with your premise that baptism must be administered by a so called minister.
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OK, I believe I understand where you are coming from, but please tell me under what authority did John have to refuse baptism? You do understand that many from the sect of the Pharisees did come into the early church? One famous one was Paul. So it wasn't because they were Pharisees. Also John gave some qualifications as well, he told these neophytes that they were to first bring the fruits of repentance? So, would you agree that John was a religious leader, and that it was John who was the baptizer?
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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
Again we have had this discussion other places on this forum not going to reiterate it all again.
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I don't know if "we" had this discussion.
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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
Other than to say I feel you are reading into the passages you quote things that are not meant.
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That's what you feel, but you really didn't offer me anything where non elders were baptizing.
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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
I will say that you contradict yourself, when you use the passage in Matt 18 to say Christ gave ministers authority, yet back pedal and say that they don't forgive sins by their word, but it is on the person being baptized. Seems you reject the words of Christ when he said "whosoevers sins you forgive shall be forgiven them". Yet give ministers authority that Christ said shall not be so in Matt 20.
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Matthew 20 speaks of the apostles lording over each other, and therefore Jesus tells them that the church government will be unlike the Roman Republic. You also didn't offer your own explanation of
John 20:23,
Matthew 18:18. I would like to read your offering on those verses.
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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
And I did not say the "same but different" these churches are all of the same mind set. Period.
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That is as impossible as me calling you a liar when you say that the Trinitarian church you attend doesn't outright teach and preach the Trinity as much or more than Jesus name Apostolics teach One God. You are looking at this with a bias, and you just don't know that for sure. I don't know the church you attend, and can only guess, and assume they do certain things. Same thing with the so called "mind set" you are proposing with a broad brush.
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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
And I did not say my cousin was in another church he was in the McMinnville church under this pastor in question.
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Forgive me, but I didn't post "another" church, I said other church, as the McMinnville church. You posted that you attended one of their "like" churches in Oregon for two years. Still I don't know your cousin, and his wife divorces him because of a pastor, a grocer, her psychiatrist, her doctor, her girlfriends, her college professor? I know of all such cases, but you want to know why these individuals were able to brake up the marriage? Because there were already weak spots in the unity of the couple. With all due respect my brother, I don't know what happened with your cousin, but I know a whole lot of situations where outside idiocy influenced men and women to leave a marriage. Yet, the marriage was already scuttled before the outside influence came along. Still I'm not saying this is the case with your cousin.
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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
And while you may think that this thread is not good, I again disagree, these types of pastors need to be exposed that God fearing saints would not fall under the control of any like them.
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So, Preterist Walls of Shame are a good thing?
No one is getting both sides of the story, are there bad men in the world? Yes, are all ministers who believe in a certain way of attire, tithing, one man leadership evil? There are some really cool godly people out there, and to chase everyone up to the windmill with torches and pitchforks is unwise.
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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
Trust me I do not rejoice on stories like this, and while you may disagree with me when I say I don't need to know this pastor personally when I say I know his philosophy, I sat under one of these pastors for two years, (they are the same group and teach the same things).
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Two years you sat under someone who did something you didn't agree with? You had a cousin who was in a "similar" situation so therefore anyone who even remotely looks like them, they don't stand a snowball's chance? OK.
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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
That being said they are no better or worse than the religious leaders of Christ day, when he said "you shut up the kingdom of God to those that would enter by your doctrines and traditions of men"
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Sadly GD, sometimes we shut up the kingdom all by ourselves.
And while you may think that this thread is not good, I again disagree, these types of pastors need to be exposed that God fearing saints would not fall under the control of any like them. Trust me I do not rejoice on stories like this, and while you may disagree with me when I say I don't need to know this pastor personally when I say I know his philosophy, I sat under one of these pastors for two years, (they are the same group and teach the same things). That being said they are no better or worse than the religious leaders of Christ day, when he said "you shut up the kingdom of God to those that would enter by your doctrines and traditions of men"[/QUOTE]
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