Why I Am A Futurist

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok so to get me focused....you are a "partial" preterist? And there are actually people who DO believe that Jesus came and took Christians away to Heaven? They are "full" preterists?

I won't present what full preterists believe as I feel the best way to understand what a view point is, is to get it straight from one that believes it and not from second-hand or hearsay, but yes, I am partial preterist.
At one time I was pretib (although it was merely what I was taught) and when I began my independent studies I graduated to Post-trib, (as pre-trib was the weakest view to explain Biblically) and upon further review, I became partial preterist and am convinced it holds closest to what Jesus and the apostles taught, particularly the events leading up to and surrounding the temple destruction and the scattering of the Jewish and the preservation of the Christians at that time. No, they weren't rapture, but fled Jerusalem when they saw the gentile armies surround Jerusalem, just like Jesus told them to do.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Bowas

So AD70 coming of the Lord in judgement against Jerusalem where he destroyed the temple, as he prophecied, is a mere blip on the radar and didn't warrant any prophecies, particularly in that the temple, the central point of their religion, has no prophetic significance?

It was just the beginning of a long dispersion that would end in the mid 1900s. Have you noticed that you are fascinated with the 70ad event and forget that there is more to the verse....Luke 21:24
24 And they(Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down(occupied) of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.(This means the Jews will reoccupy future Jerusalem...June 1967 the city was taken back by Jewish forces for the 1st time in 2000 years. The Jews now occupy Jerusalem as the new owners. There was a prophecied end to the dispersion, not just a judgement as you guys magnify )

So wrong...BTW, Im glad the Christians at that time believed Jesus' words and fled when they saw Jerusalem surrounded/encompassed by armies.

Yes they did, but Christians along with Jews were systematically slaughtered until the time of Constantine.

Also, double check your numbers how many Jews were around globally during Hitlers time.

They(numbers) are on the post of the modern site I gave. I did not assume the ANCIENT Jewish population statistics like you did on your post Bowas.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Bowas

I won't present what full preterists believe as I feel the best way to understand what a view point is, is to get it straight from one that believes it and not from second-hand or hearsay, but yes, I am partial preterist.
At one time I was pretib (although it was merely what I was taught) and when I began my independent studies I graduated to Post-trib, (as pre-trib was the weakest view to explain Biblically) and upon further review, I became partial preterist and am convinced it holds closest to what Jesus and the apostles taught, particularly the events leading up to and surrounding the temple destruction and the scattering of the Jewish and the preservation of the Christians at that time. No, they weren't rapture, but fled Jerusalem when they saw the gentile armies surround Jerusalem, just like Jesus told them to do.

The full prets must be ashamed to declare what they believe. I cant blame them. I have talked to some of them and am reasonably sure they believe Jesus already came in 70ad but I guess Im just trying to hear it again to make sure.

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Sean

They(numbers) are on the post of the modern site I gave. I did not assume the ANCIENT Jewish population statistics like you did on your post Bowas.

Ok. Do me a favor. Provide your source that gives an estimate or assumption as to the worlds population during that time.

P.S. Your "modern" numbers are assumptions as well, as you didn't personally count them, so you too are making an assumption, and since when did you suddenly become a fan of things "modern", as I recall, you reject ALL "modern" Bible translations. (I can hear the exceptions now. lol)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

MB I have been thinking about the kingdom conversation we had earlier. The church is the kingdom of God I understand that you believe the development of the church fulfills all the kingdom prophecy. Most futurists look to natural Israel for fullfilment of those prophecy's. I am seeing duality in things. I said on another thread that I don't think the nation of Israel will receive any eternal inheritance on the grounds of being a Jew, but I do believe that it could quiet possibly be a earthly manifestation of what God is doing in regards to prophecy.

Here's my thoughts, since I looked and looked and could not find any grounds for a material kingdom for Israel. Jesus simply said that's not possible when he stated the kingdom doesn't come with observation. In fact, the disciples asked Jesus when He would restore again the kingdom to Israel. For one thing, Jesus never said anything about such a concept. in his teachings. It was a popular belief among Jews in that day, but neither the Lord nor apostles ever taught it. Jesus redirected them to the kingdom of the Holy GHost in them. After that, when they received the Spirit, no one ever spoke of it again.

Jesus said the Holy Ghost would guide them into truths He was unable to teach them during His time on earth, for they couldn't bear them. I think this Spiritual kingdom was one of those elements.

ALso, Jesus taught about the kingdom during the 40 days after His resurrection. If He taught them about the Kingdom, and they had to ask about an earthly Israelite kingdom, He obviously said nothing about that earthly idea.

The idea that God is going to close the door to the gentiles and open it to Jews is wrong(I think).

Amen.

For the door is not closed on the Jew now to receive the Spirit of God. As a nation yes I see where they are under strong delusion, but I have faith that any Jew alive today can become part of that spiritual kingdom the church. I believe as long as this world stands there will be hope for those who believe on Him. I have not found a rapture prior to His second coming, but I am open minded and eager to hear any valid points. I still don't know?

The rapture is AT the second coming, according to 1 C or 15.

Also, the church is Jew and Gentile in one body reconciled to God by the cross. The "gentile church" idea is utter nonsense.

Regarding dual fulfillment, we see dozens of dual fulfillments with one occurrence before the cross and the second after. Never were there two occurrences of both fulfilments after the cross. This is because type and antitype are involved with the type before the cross and the antitype after.

AGain, I simply think the only reason people consider duality is in trying to hang onto futurism. But when you look at the passages themselves why would anyone think there would be a dual fulfillment?

As I stated earlier, if one tribulation is AD70 and the second in the future then the one in AD70 could have nothing occur later that is as great. And the on in the future could not have any in the past that is greater. As soon as Jesus said none greater before or after, the dual idea cannot work.

[mfblume]

Bowas indicated to me he made a typo. The first century had 200,000,000 in the world.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Bowas wrote:

According to best estimates, there were 97,000 prisoners and 1,100,000 who perished. He also cites a widespread slaughter by the local populations elsewhere where the Jews were disliked including Damascus 18,000 plus their families and Egypt 60,000 plus families.

Best estimate of population of the entire planet in AD100 is <200,000. So it would be equivalent to @35,000,000 Jews being killed today. That is how large a number of people was slaughtered in ad70.

Neither is acceptable, but just to put a perspective on the magnitude of that massacre back then. Not to mention why that happened to them in that generation.
To take it a step further, if we are to tally up the population of "the world" as it is described in the Bible for this region at that time where the Jews lived (see verse), the massacre in AD70 is even far more horrific.

There was an estimated 70,000,000 people in THAT world at that time, and out of that 70 million, over 1 million Jews was killed, so it would have been the equivalent of 100,000,000 (1 hundred million) Jews killed, proportionately to our 7 billion population today

2 And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that ALL THE WORLD should be taxed.

[Michael The Disciple]

Ok here is the bottom line about full preterism. Its spoken of by the apostle Paul.

16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

2 Tim. 2:16-18

It is a dangerous faith destroying doctrine. It robs the Christian of the very thing he was looking for when he came to Christ to start with....HOPE.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok here is the bottom line about full preterism. Its spoken of by the apostle Paul.

2 Tim. 2:16-18

It is a dangerous faith destroying doctrine. It robs the Christian of the very thing he was looking for when he came to Christ to start with....HOPE.

I am not full preterist, but brother, full preterists believe they each receive a resurrection upon death. So, they do not deny resurrection. Like I said, I disagree with that concept, but they do preach resurrection in each individual's future. Hymenaeus and Philetus did not. They think 1 Cor 15's resurrection is not AD70 but upon each person's death.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I am not full preterist, but brother, full preterists believe they each receive a resurrection upon death. So, they do not deny resurrection. Like I said, I disagree with that concept, but they do preach resurrection in each individual's future. Hymenaeus and Philetus did not. They think 1 Cor 15's resurrection is not AD70 but upon each person's death.

Jesus taught a general resurrection. No one is resurrected upon their death. Just more heresy.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Jesus taught a general resurrection. No one is resurrected upon their death. Just more heresy.

I agree it is general. But still they aren't Hymenaeus and Philetus with NO resurrection.