They have no shame

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

As for Sean, he's in his own category.

You kill me.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The correct teaching concerning ministerial support to the elders and congregation does not muzzle the ox because the ox can feed where he treads. But what I see (more times than I care to mention) is when people come out of mandatory tithing institution it usually didn't happen over the tithing. It was over some horror story concerning the preacher and saint relationship. So, as you read or listen to teachings against tithing an underlying issue seems to always pop up, and that is some preacher becoming Daddy Warbucks off of the tithe. While that may be true in some areas, it isn't across the board by any means, and most Pentecostal One God Churches are no where near the sizes of the Trinitarian groups who soak their congregations (not through tithing) but through coerced manipulation of "taking up an offering" which has nothing to do with tithes. But has everything to do with just asking the congregation to give, which the apostle in 1st Corinthians 9 admonishes his ministers that they were to never ask for support, because it was already ordained by God, that those who preached the Gospel were to be maintained by the Gospel.

Yet, we shouldn't look for a dog licking wound doctrine, what I mean, is that eldership, tithing, church government, or soteriology should be born out of an offense due to a religious mishap in one's life. It should come through study, and not be seasoned with stories of circus trainwrecks. ministerial support was never sought, and one time it was refused, and the givers forced the ministers to take the funds 2 Corinthians 8:2-4.

When people start saying that nothing O.T. made it over into the New, they set themselves up for a natural quandary. Prophets were OT, teachers were only Levites, no one else held the position to teach the people, until the new faction of the Pharisees arose out of necessity of Babylonian captivity. So, there is my opinion.

You're quite a writer. Should write a book!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You're quite a writer. Should write a book!

That's your job.

You write the books and I will read them.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

When people start saying that nothing O.T. made it over into the New, they set themselves up for a natural quandary

Who said that? Lots of OT made it into the new. But, contextually and hermeneutically speaking, tithing was not one of them. What is constantly contended by the tithe teachers is "an eternal principle or precept seen from Eden to now". They have failed in making that case IMO.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Although,"The Church" is not a building, scriptures indicate that they had gathering places of worship Old and New Testaments. I commend you for the house church you are growing, but I hope you outgrow that venue. It is not because of the material, but because there is more lost souls to win then can fit in your living room.

We will never "outgrow the living room" to chase after a mortgage on a special meeting place. The reason we meet in houses is because we believe that is the Biblical, apostolic way.

Growth is not determined by the size of one's living room. Salvation, in the Biblical model, takes place "out there", as opposed to the modern institutional model where salvation occurs primarily inside the "temple" building. If we have too many people to fit in the living room it is time for the church to reproduce, becoming two ecclesias.

There was unprecedented growth in the apostolic church for over 200 years of it's history dating from Pentecost, and that whole time congregations met "house to house".

The building-centric view of church and the biblical house church model have very different approaches to evangelism, growth, etc.


I don't want every lost soul to fit in my living room. I want every lost soul to hear the gospel, and those whom the Lord saves to be discipled and taught to replicate in others what happened in them.

Most of them will have a living room. So rather than gather everyone to me and stuff them into my little can, I'd rather see tens, scores, hundreds of ecclesias, all expanding outward from where they are.

Growth via multiplication as opposed to addition.

[FlamingZword]

Thank you bro. Benincasa

I think you hit on something very insightful

Some churches may pretend that they do not teach the tithe, but their numerous collections for this or for that usually means that the church members end up giving much more than the tithe.

That is a nice racket, tell people you do not teach the tithe, but then soak them with constant appeals for money.

[good samaritan]

Acts 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Do you know of any living room that can contain 120 people? Where in the Bible does it speak of multiple ecclesias in one city? They broke bread and fellowshiped from house to house, but that didn't mean that they didn't have larger assemblies.

We can't cut our self off from the rest of the Jesus name born again Church. When Jesus said seek first the kingdom and all these other things shall be added to you, I think this would include facilities to accommodate worship and exhortation. I liked EB's statement that the ministry doesn't have to ask for donations. We can trust God to provide.

Tithing is a form of worship. By making commitments to God in essence we are honoring God. I don't selfishly teach on giving to receive, but instead I teach it to grow people closer to God and see them blessed. The Lord will see to it that there is always enough regardless of those who want to refute how it should or if it should be given. I hate to see so many people bitter against their brother in the Lord. There isn't one of us perfect and we should pray for those who we feel has bewronged us.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The correct teaching concerning ministerial support to the elders and congregation does not muzzle the ox because the ox can feed where he treads. But what I see (more times than I care to mention) is when people come out of mandatory tithing institution it usually didn't happen over the tithing. It was over some horror story concerning the preacher and saint relationship. So, as you read or listen to teachings against tithing an underlying issue seems to always pop up, and that is some preacher becoming Daddy Warbucks off of the tithe. While that may be true in some areas, it isn't across the board by any means, and most Pentecostal One God Churches are no where near the sizes of the Trinitarian groups who soak their congregations (not through tithing) but through coerced manipulation of "taking up an offering" which has nothing to do with tithes. But has everything to do with just asking the congregation to give, which the apostle in 1st Corinthians 9 admonishes his ministers that they were to never ask for support, because it was already ordained by God, that those who preached the Gospel were to be maintained by the Gospel.

Yet, we shouldn't look for a dog licking wound doctrine, what I mean, is that eldership, tithing, church government, or soteriology shouldn't be born out of an offense due to a religious mishap in one's life. It should come through study, and not be seasoned with stories of circus trainwrecks. ministerial support was never sought, and one time it was refused, and the givers forced the ministers to take the funds 2 Corinthians 8:2-4.

When people start saying that nothing O.T. made it over into the New, they set themselves up for a natural quandary. Prophets were OT, teachers were only Levites, no one else held the position to teach the people, until the new faction of the Pharisees arose out of necessity of Babylonian captivity. So, there is my opinion.

Our Church is small and sometimes so are the contributions. Over the last several months and unexpected donor has been sending contributions to our church. They had no reasons motivating them to give, but God. God will see to it our needs are met without always hammering on people to give us something. I believe that God will grow us without squeezing the people to death for more.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

We will never "outgrow the living room" to chase after a mortgage on a special meeting place. The reason we meet in houses is because we believe that is the Biblical, apostolic way.

Growth is not determined by the size of one's living room. Salvation, in the Biblical model, takes place "out there", as opposed to the modern institutional model where salvation occurs primarily inside the "temple" building. If we have too many people to fit in the living room it is time for the church to reproduce, becoming two ecclesias.

There was unprecedented growth in the apostolic church for over 200 years of it's history dating from Pentecost, and that whole time congregations met "house to house".

The building-centric view of church and the biblical house church model have very different approaches to evangelism, growth, etc.


I don't want every lost soul to fit in my living room. I want every lost soul to hear the gospel, and those whom the Lord saves to be discipled and taught to replicate in others what happened in them.

Most of them will have a living room. So rather than gather everyone to me and stuff them into my little can, I'd rather see tens, scores, hundreds of ecclesias, all expanding outward from where they are.

Growth via multiplication as opposed to addition.

I firmly believe the early church growth was because of the signs that followed the Church. Big, Medium,small, in a house, in a church building, if we start doing the exploits the early church did you are going to see the growth the way the early church grew. Our church is so tiny people that visit from other churches ussually make remarks, but I don't care. I pray for God to work miracles among us.

When people start coming up out of wheel chairs I don't think giving will be a problem. Is this common in your meetings? This was what was happening in the early church. I pray for your church right now as I type this. Lord prepare the hearts for a great revival.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Growth via multiplication as opposed to addition.

nice, E. While i don't disagree entirely with GS, i think the dynamic is different now. An assembly of many groups could always meet in a park, or rent space for a day.