Anger + Sadness = RAGE

[MissBrattified]

It's interesting that those who support Zimmerman are asking us to wait for the full facts to come out. The more facts I hear and the more I sort out the pieces of the case, the more I'm convinced the Zimmerman belongs in jail.

If my child were walking around the neighborhood and a stranger started following them--first in a vehicle and then presumably on foot--I would EXPECT them to either run or fight. Otherwise, they would be forgetting everything I've ever taught them.

We are being told that Treyvon beat up Zimmerman and then was shot, but what we don't know is whether or not Zimmerman approached Treyvon in an aggressive or threatening way (and provoked a physical reaction). Being followed is enough to provoke someone into being defensive at the very least. And yeah, if you're a 17 year old boy, then defending yourself could cause a broken nose. Unfortunately, fists are no match for a gun.

Zimmerman should have taken his truck home, put on his pajamas and put himself to bed when the 911 operator said to stop following the kid. There's no way he could have been "attacked" if he hadn't gotten out of his truck at SOME point and disobeyed the instruction from the operator. 100% wrong from that point on.

As for the "hoodie" twist; my kids wear hoodies ALL. THE. TIME. Sarah wears hers with the hood UP even when it's warm because she's thin and almost always cold. I would hate for someone like Zimmerman to see her with her hand in her pocket (feeling around for Skittles), assume she was a threat to the neighborhood and take her out.

If a girl had been shot, Zimmerman would probably be sitting in jail on murder, attempted kidnapping, assault and harassment charges. Because Treyvon is a teenage boy (and worse, one from a minority group), he was perceived as being a threat, and many people see that PERCEPTION as legitimate. Therefore they are less upset about his death than they ought to be.

@tstew: It seems impossible to not be biased to some extent. I'm annoyed by the media's persistence in calling Zimmerman white. It's deliberately incendiary. The rest of the story, though, I've looked at from a parenting perspective, and if that were MY son or daughter, I would be enraged. I'm sure I would want some vigilante justice of my own.

@Pressing-On: If your son was being followed by someone, first in a vehicle and then on foot, you would expect him to stop and carry on a conversation with this person who carries NO badge or other official identification showing that he is an authority figure? You would expect THAT and not running or self-defense? REALLY? I think I know you better than that. You would expect your son to either get OUT of that situation ASAP or, if the person got too close, to defend himself by whatever means necessary. Personally, I think you need to carefully consider why you think that Treyvon should have stopped and had a conversation with a strange man who had no authority to stop or detain him whatsoever. Coming from a politically conservative point of view, that fact alone should put you in Treyvon's corner. NO ONE except a police officer or other member of local law enforcement has the right to stop, detain, or use deadly force against my kids--and even law enforcement better have a REALLY good reason to do so. And even with a REALLY good reason, I expect them to use the least amount of force necessary to control the situation.

[canam]

Why isnt the msm outraged over the white boy being set on fire in Kansas by two blacks who said you deserve it white boy? JD has no comment either,

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

It's interesting that those who support Zimmerman are asking us to wait for the full facts to come out. The more facts I hear and the more I sort out the pieces of the case, the more I'm convinced the Zimmerman belongs in jail.

If my child were walking around the neighborhood and a stranger started following them--first in a vehicle and then presumably on foot--I would EXPECT them to either run or fight. Otherwise, they would be forgetting everything I've ever taught them.

We are being told that Treyvon beat up Zimmerman and then was shot, but what we don't know is whether or not Zimmerman approached Treyvon in an aggressive or threatening way (and provoked a physical reaction). Being followed is enough to provoke someone into being defensive at the very least. And yeah, if you're a 17 year old boy, then defending yourself could cause a broken nose. Unfortunately, fists are no match for a gun.

Zimmerman should have taken his truck home, put on his pajamas and put himself to bed when the 911 operator said to stop following the kid. There's no way he could have been "attacked" if he hadn't gotten out of his truck at SOME point and disobeyed the instruction from the operator. 100% wrong from that point on.

As for the "hoodie" twist; my kids wear hoodies ALL. THE. TIME. Sarah wears hers with the hood UP even when it's warm because she's thin and almost always cold. I would hate for someone like Zimmerman to see her with her hand in her pocket (feeling around for Skittles), assume she was a threat to the neighborhood and take her out.

If a girl had been shot, Zimmerman would probably be sitting in jail on murder, attempted kidnapping, assault and harassment charges. Because Treyvon is a teenage boy (and worse, one from a minority group), he was perceived as being a threat, and many people see that PERCEPTION as legitimate. Therefore they are less upset about his death than they ought to be.

@tstew: It seems impossible to not be biased to some extent. I'm annoyed by the media's persistence in calling Zimmerman white. It's deliberately incendiary. The rest of the story, though, I've looked at from a parenting perspective, and if that were MY son or daughter, I would be enraged. I'm sure I would want some vigilante justice of my own.

@Pressing-On: If your son was being followed by someone, first in a vehicle and then on foot, you would expect him to stop and carry on a conversation with this person who carries NO badge or other official identification showing that he is an authority figure? You would expect THAT and not running or self-defense? REALLY? I think I know you better than that. You would expect your son to either get OUT of that situation ASAP or, if the person got too close, to defend himself by whatever means necessary. Personally, I think you need to carefully consider why you think that Treyvon should have stopped and had a conversation with a strange man who had no authority to stop or detain him whatsoever. Coming from a politically conservative point of view, that fact alone should put you in Treyvon's corner. NO ONE except a police officer or other member of local law enforcement has the right to stop, detain, or use deadly force against my kids--and even law enforcement better have a REALLY good reason to do so. And even with a REALLY good reason, I expect them to use the least amount of force necessary to control the situation.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by canam

Why isnt the msm outraged over the white boy being set on fire in Kansas by two blacks who said you deserve it white boy? JD has no comment either,

Whether "msm" is outraged has no bearing on the validity of the Trayvon case. It points to media bias, but it does NOT do anything at all to justify Zimmerman's actions. I don't care about media bias. Well, it annoys me, but it doesn't determine whether something is right or wrong. That part we can decide for ourselves when we have all the facts.

So what do you think, canam? Do you think Trayvon deserved to be shot? Was Zimmerman justified in following a teenage boy around the neighborhood because he looked suspicious--even after the 911 operator told him not to?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Whether "msm" is outraged has no bearing on the validity of the Trayvon case. It points to media bias, but it does NOT do anything at all to justify Zimmerman's actions. I don't care about media bias. Well, it annoys me, but it doesn't determine whether something is right or wrong. That part we can decide for ourselves when we have all the facts.

So what do you think, canam? Do you think Trayvon deserved to be shot? Was Zimmerman justified in following a teenage boy around the neighborhood because he looked suspicious--even after the 911 operator told him not to?

Bad question. Travon did not "deserve to be shot" by Zimmerman - even if he was in the middle of a burglary and high on acid. None of that really matters when it comes to justifying lethal force. The only good reason for using lethal force in this case, was if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Bad question. Travon did not "deserve to be shot" by Zimmerman - even if he was in the middle of a burglary and high on acid. None of that really matters when it comes to justifying lethal force. The only good reason for using lethal force in this case, was if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman.

It was intended to be a "bad question." My tone of voice was "sarcastic mixed with aggravation." (impossible to convey here)

The problem with your latter comment is this: Zimmerman may have initiated the attack by stalking and [possibly] harassing Trayvon. That makes the whole situation a lot more sticky. Yes, if Trayvon had randomly selected Zimmerman and assaulted him, it would be more cut and dried. That isn't what happened, though. So even if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, it could still be demonstrated that Zimmerman provoked this altercation. It potentially removes the justification for lethal force and "self-defense" entirely.

Think about it Hoovie: How would you expect your wife to react if a strange man were following her around the neighborhood in a vehicle and then proceeded to follow her on foot or approach her? Wouldn't you want her to perceive that as a potential threat? I know I would perceive it as a threat. While Trayvon was male, and clearly more capable of defending himself than a woman, the threat of being followed and possibly harassed remains the same for all of us. Most of us would be on guard and suspicious of the person following, and feel threatened if we were approached.

What's ironic about this is that when a person feels threatened they become defensive and paranoid which only further lends itself to them acting "suspicious" in the eyes of the one following. Sean Hannity commented today that it may have simply been the "perfect storm" of two people who were suspicious of one another and it ended tragically. Each may have started with basic distrust of the other and it spiraled out of control from there.

I know I'm repeating myself, but I keep going back to how I would interpret this if Trayvon were MY son. I know that MY husband would not have behaved as Zimmerman did. We would call the police if someone looked like they were a threat. We might ask someone what they were doing on our road *out here*, but we never would have done that in town where people walk around all the time. On the flip side, we would certainly call the Sheriff if someone was following our kids around, and we would be upset and frightened to find out the guy was packing heat and that his reason was that he thought our kids looked "suspicious."

My first response to my kids would NOT be: "Well, next time stop and explain to the nice man what you were doing wearing a hoodie and having your hand in your pocket." My first response to someone like Zimmerman would be: "Why were you following my child?" and "What on earth do you mean by "suspicious?" That's assuming there wasn't a murder. My response (and yours, no doubt) would be vastly different if someone murdered my child.

At this point, it doesn't appear that Trayvon was even TRESPASSING on anyone's property--again, a more understandable action to interpret as suspicious.

[trialedbyfire]

UH-OH.... THIS JUST IN:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/georg...lance-16024475

We now have video of what Zimmerman looked like when the situation was over and (btw) paramedics had cleaned him up.

This doesn't look like a guy that just had the guacamole beat out of him by a 200+ ibs monster. Granted he PROBABLY DID have a head injury. Probably was showing some blood. Head injuries do bleed a lot. In the video you can see an officer checking Zimmerman's head. However if it was cleaned up easily without him being taken to a hospital I can assure you it wasn't bad. There doesn't seem to be any bandages (Zimmerman claimed he broke his nose, doesn't look like it), no frontal injuries. No blood on clothes, no grass stains on back (even though it might be the camera for that).

This is all really strange...

[Hoovie]

Mrs Bratty, following from a distance and calling 911 is exactly what I would expect a trained neighborhood watchman to do. When dispatch informed him he was not required to put himself into that level of danger him retreated. That's how I see it.

Uh, ... My wife? She would not be out there alone.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Mrs Bratty, following from a distance and calling 911 is exactly what I would expect a trained neighborhood watchman to do. When dispatch informed him he was not required to put himself into that level of danger him retreated. That's how I see it.

He sounds over-zealous at best, and he should have listened to the dispatcher because he didn't have the authority to take any action against the young man. By "action" I mean approaching him, demanding explanations, harassing, etc. (All assumption, since we don't really know what happened in that 1 minute time lapse.)

Uh, ... My wife? She would not be out there alone.

Well, I KNOW! LOL!! My husband wouldn't want me to walk around by myself either. I was trying to make a point about perception of a threat, though. She would perceive being followed as a threat, and rightfully so. You would expect her to perceive that as such--right?

[canam]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Mrs Bratty, following from a distance and calling 911 is exactly what I would expect a trained neighborhood watchman to do. When dispatch informed him he was not required to put himself into that level of danger him retreated. That's how I see it.

Uh, ... My wife? She would not be out there alone.