The Theology of Music

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pneuman

I think you are talking about me Praxeas. I think what you said is partially true. I can see how somebody who is still an adherent could see my initial comments as "bashing." But really, the term bashing is extremely subjective and is directly related to the feeling one gets from the dialog. Another person may see it as freeing, or for somebody like myself who has been "delivered" from the UPC (yes I said delivered) as a confirmation even. Offense is most often about the hearer. Like Jesus said in His discourse on Mt. Olivet, "and many shall be offended" .... notice he did not say and many shall offend. I have no ill will toward the UPC! Many of the people up here have treated us horribly for leaving "the fold" and they will be judged by the one who is righteous to judge ... I pray that they repent of their lies and hatred. On the otehr hand, I have good friends who are faithful to the UPC and her doctrines with whom I am good friends and even though we don't hold exactly the same position on many things, we are solid on the salvation message. I don't know where it because taboo to disagree with the requirement that disfellowhip is the only alternative for those who differ from the party line, but so it is.

Anyway, you will no doubt see this as bashing as well. Be at peace my brother! (Psalm 119:165).

The part in bold relates to me as well. I was born and raised in the UPC. I left the organization almost a decade ago, though there are still UPC churches I fellowship with and Pastors, Evangelists and others in the org whom I love and respect. Unfortunately, there are a few ministers and others who treated me badly, lied and said all kinds of junk.

[n david]

Originally Posted by ILG

Bashing is not the same thing as stating your experience.

Depends on how the experience is stated. I agree with Pneuman, it's the reader/hearer who is either offended or not. What you call stating your experience can easily be viewed as bashing to the reader/hearer. And especially on AFF!

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pneuman

LOL ND!

Allow me to be carnal here for just a moment:

Jake Blues: What kind of music do you play here.
Bar Owner: Both kinds, country and western!

OK, now that I have that out of my system!

That bar owner must have got saved and become the preacher I was talking about earlier!

Originally Posted by Pneuman

I listen to and play all kinds of music. I am not really into the Southern stuff, although I like some Crabb family and a few others, and it is my wife's fave (yes she has horns and carries a pitch fork). Love doing worship, well most of it anyway, and play Bass in our worship band at church. I listen to a large variety ... some stuff that would be considered more on the christian pop cultural side (Casting Crowns, Big Daddy Weave, Jeremy Camp) and even some of the lighter stuff (Kari Jobe, Laura Story, PCD, etc), but there are times I want to rock out a little (there I go using that heathen term again) and I throw on some of the harder stuff (Fireflight, Decyfer Down, Flyleaf, Ashes Remain, Red, Nine Lashes, etc.), and have even been known to occasionally make a foray into music that is by people who claim to be Christian playing music that does not have the name of Jesus in it (these people claim to be trying to reach people for Christ but that they can't playing Christian music because they would get stigmatized, and I can clearly see that. Bands like Paramore, 12 Stones, Icon for Hire, The Letter Black, etc.).

I like a broad range of music, depending on what I'm doing. Classical, Country, Rock, R&B, Old School late 80s/early 90s Hip Hop, Easy Listening, Acoustic, etc. Some of my favorite secular artists are Stevie Wonder, Babyface, Michael Jackson, Run DMC, Aerosmith, Bruno Mars, Lady Antebellum, Gloriana, Josh Groban, Andrea Bocelli, Celtic Woman, etc. Favorite Christian artists are Jimmy Needham, Family Force 5, Hillsong/United/Chapel, Kari Jobe, Kutless, Planetshakers, Jason Crabb, William McDowell, Donnie McClurkin, Deluge, Israel Houghton, Fred Hammon and RFC, Eddie James, Freddy Rodriguez, Andre Crouch, Winans, Miel San Marcos, TobyMac, etc.

Originally Posted by Pneuman

My position is, and will always be, that church should have the best worship music in the world. My question is, however, how much time do we spend ministering to ourselves, and what would the church look like if everything we did was with a mind to reach the lost and not just to keep ourselves saved. Would our music change any if there was a chance we could see more people turn to Jesus? How does that look? Are we afraid to go there because we might lose our food on the way?

I agree, and I think it does.

Originally Posted by Pneuman

Funny story about Carmen. He was one of the first Christian musicians I heard when God saved me. The person who turned me on to him shortly after received a "revelation" that she should only listen to music put out by UPC artists. And help everyone else to the same standard.

My first concert was a Carman concert. I loved his concerts. I just read he's going on tour again this summer, and I'm hoping he's coming through AZ so I can take my wife and daughter.

[obriencp]

maybe Prax viewed me as bashing the UPC, maybe he got me confused with someone else. Either way, I never mentioned the UPC in my rant. I was sharing my experiences and my experiences do not necessarily represent the majority by any means. However, i'm sure that others have heard at least a few of the things I did mention.

I am actually surprised no one else quoted any of my comments. Maybe the church I grew up in was uniquely strict and judgmental.

[Pneuman]

Originally Posted by obriencp

maybe Prax viewed me as bashing the UPC, maybe he got me confused with someone else. Either way, I never mentioned the UPC in my rant. I was sharing my experiences and my experiences do not necessarily represent the majority by any means. However, i'm sure that others have heard at least a few of the things I did mention.

I am actually surprised no one else quoted any of my comments. Maybe the church I grew up in was uniquely strict and judgmental.

I appreciated your thoughts! They mirrored a lot of things that are parallel to my original post. The reason I didn't comment further is 1) I agree with your post, and 2) when I tried I went down all kinds of rabbit trails and I want to stay as close to my original thought as possible on this thread. Be advised, however, that several of your thoughts are fodder for future threads!

Pneuman

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Carl

Someone once said "hymnology does what theology can't do". Music seems to reach us sometimes better than just words. Likewise music can help us express ourselves better than with words alone.

Having heard all of the above mentioned "teachings" on music I've been confused during my lifetime to watch most churches gradually move to a more rock style format. I do like contemporary music but also miss a lot of the old hymns and choruses that are no longer used.

I invited a friend and co-worker to my church who came from a different Christian background.

He arrived early, during the time when our church prays before service, and someone decided to start playing Skillet over the sound system for some unknown reason.

It was very disturbing to him. His statement was "The Holy Spirit inspires peacefulness. This kind of music isn't holy" (I'm paraphrasing since this was several years back).

I took what he said to heart. I'm not against a single genre music, per se. But I am against the idea of thinking we can just do whatever we want with "our music" while demanding that the people we are trying to win to the Lord should "just deal with it".

My church lost the chance to minister to my friend and co-worker, because of the music.

Currently, I am trying to win a different co-worker, who grew up in a very conservative, hymnal only Baptist church. Getting her to come to my church and getting her past the contemporary, sometimes vapid Pentecostal music, is going to be a big challenge.

I wish it wasn't so.

[votivesoul]

My personal stance on music (Christian or otherwise) is the following:

In order of importance (i.e. how I judge if a song is worthy of my attention/interest):

1.) Life and conduct of the artist/performer
2.) Lyrical Content
3.) Perceived inspiration/motivation behind the song
4.) Perceived feelings/emotions generated in me as I listen
5.) How distracting the song becomes (i.e. does it get stuck in my head ad nauseum?)
6.) Genre or type of music

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by n david

I think you got the wrong guy...

Uh, yes but he was the wrong guy to comment on my post to begin with lol

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Pneuman

I think you are talking about me Praxeas. I think what you said is partially true. I can see how somebody who is still an adherent could see my initial comments as "bashing." But really, the term bashing is extremely subjective and is directly related to the feeling one gets from the dialog. Another person may see it as freeing, or for somebody like myself who has been "delivered" from the UPC (yes I said delivered) as a confirmation even. Offense is most often about the hearer. Like Jesus said in His discourse on Mt. Olivet, "and many shall be offended" .... notice he did not say and many shall offend. I have no ill will toward the UPC! Many of the people up here have treated us horribly for leaving "the fold" and they will be judged by the one who is righteous to judge ... I pray that they repent of their lies and hatred. On the otehr hand, I have good friends who are faithful to the UPC and her doctrines with whom I am good friends and even though we don't hold exactly the same position on many things, we are solid on the salvation message. I don't know where it because taboo to disagree with the requirement that disfellowhip is the only alternative for those who differ from the party line, but so it is.

Anyway, you will no doubt see this as bashing as well. Be at peace my brother! (Psalm 119:165).

I could not care less if you leave the UPC or not. It just get's old to see everyone come to an Apostolic forum and start with negative stuff about the UPC or negative stereotypes.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by n david

The part in bold relates to me as well. I was born and raised in the UPC. I left the organization almost a decade ago, though there are still UPC churches I fellowship with and Pastors, Evangelists and others in the org whom I love and respect. Unfortunately, there are a few ministers and others who treated me badly, lied and said all kinds of junk.

For the record, I was not born and raised in any church. I attend a UPC but I don't belong to an organization, so I can't leave it. If I wanted to become a licensed preacher I could join it. As far as I am concerned, I attend a moderate local assembly that is a part of that organization.

Either way it get's old being on a forum that is supposed to be Apostolic and seeing a large majority of posts railing on about the UPC