Pentecostal Prophecies Delay Christ's Return

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Farfel

1 John 4:1, 1 Thessalonians 5:21, Deuteronomy 18:22

Hugh Ross's favorite verse and the one he wrote when he signed a book for me.

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by JoeHardy07

So, there once came a missionary to the UPC church I go to who in the heat of his sermon walked to the window pulled the blinds and said, in effect, "I see bulldozers! God is gonna grow this church! A mighty revival starts here!" He was undoubtedly referring to the new building this church is saving for.

What puzzles me is how we teach that Jesus could return at any moment, and yet hold fast to prophecies like this one that are "no doubt" from God. How could Jesus return at any moment if God is planning on giving this church a new building? It seems like Jesus' any-moment return is put on hold until this prophecy is fulfilled.

So, Christ wont return until we at least see bulldozers in the lot, right?

Think about any prophecy you've heard and compare it to the idea that Christ return is soon. Anybody else wonder about the trustworthiness of these kinds of prophecies?

Hello,

If the prophecy was truly of the Lord then it will come to pass, and it will come to pass before the coming of the Lord. There are prophecies of Scripture yet to come to pass before Christ's return, and this is why the Imminent Return doctrine is not biblical.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by samuelofisrael

Yes. Expectations of the events that preceed the arrival of Messiah to Israel and the world in His corporeal visible parousia of which the Bible speaks should at all times be stressed. And too, there is the factor of the "unknown" arrival of Yeshua in which we must live, work and continue in Godliness witnessing to a lost and dying humanity.

It is interesting that it was the political Roman Catholic Church who postulated the errant "replacement theological" point of view that stripped national Israel of the Promises awarding them to the gentile church body, namely, themselves. With this self promotion they also posited the designation: "bride of Christ" to themselves, a notion that has absolutely no support in the Pauline Epistles.

Paul as the Apostle to the gentiles and without controversy the greatest NT exegete, never addresses the BODY of Christ, the "elect" ... the "church," as "bride." It is a presupposition. And with this presuppositon came the much later theory of Darby and the "three comings of Christ." A theory that was popularized by one of his disciples, Scofield of the Scofield Bible notes. The notes are not inspired nor is the eschatology of Scofield. They are the human conclusions of the 19th century Plymouth Brethern.

It is not a salvational issue only that Paul is silent concerning a "gentile bride," or the "secret any moment" rapture prior to the arrival of Messiah. It is gentile conclusionism.

Yes, there is a catching away. Yes, it is a secret concerning the arrival of Messiah. Yes there will be a meeting in the "air." Yes, the saints will be gathered to the Lord and ever be with Him. What is not a conclusive fact is the timing, the events and the order of these eschatological occurrences.

The most beloved verse in Holy Writ is [likely] John 3:16. A close second conviction by Christians today is the "any moment secret rapture of the bride."

But does Paul teach Darby's Theology? Or did Darby "mix and match?"

Plainly stated, there is no record of a "gentile bride." There is a record of gentile "engrafts," gentile members of the BODY of Christ. Gentiles among the election. Gentiles among the saints of God. Gentile remnant. Gentile five fold ministry.

Paul reports in Eph. 5:30 that we are [not shall be] but are now members of His BODY.

And yes, Paul also pens that he "has" espoused us to One Husband. A husband is not a suitor, a bridegroom or one who is yet waiting vital union with the intended. A "husband" as with a "wife" [not a bride] share "one body" in the eyes of God. To 'espouse' is to join together, a union, a marriage. It falls into the "done deal" catagory. With the regenerated person, it is NOW consumated. But with those of whom it is not consumated, it awaits a joining together.

Is the born again Christian waiting for vital union with the HUSBAND? Are you [they, me, them] confessing we are NOT of the BODY of Christ, that we are yet in the bridal chamber waiting to be joined to the Head?

Not me. I claim vital union. I am NOW a member of the BODY of Christ. Bride has absolutely no application to me. The term bride does however favor another company PROMISED to the Son.

Yes, that is correct. The BRIDEGROOM was sent NOT but to the House of Israel. And yes, He was rejected by the bride but not forever, not eternally. The bride of the Bible awaits her marriage with the DIVINE BRIDEGROOM and so it is promised in Holy Writ.

I know this is radically unpopular with the gentile church and understandably so. But if they would see the implications of the truth of the Scriptures they would rejoice. One is in a NOW union. The other [national Israel] is yet in the ante chamber awaiting their restoration.
Further saying, this error of designation will never disappear from Christian folklore as a sentimental doctrine of the church. And in that it is not a damaging heresy, just incorrect. Paul never taught what Darby concluded. It is strictly gentile theology long after the Inspired Record was closed.

Shalom.

While I agree with you on most of this post, I must ask where does it say Isreal is yet waiting to be restored. Only those that rejected him, Christ, were not part of the body of Christ, and they were destroyed by God with their Holy City and Temple. All others have the same opportunity to become part of the Body of Christ as any other human on earth, whether they be Jew or Gentile, male or female.

Sorry I don't believe there is a comming restoration of Nation Isreal to God as the nation was never seperated from God in salvation. Only the Gentiles were added. How else do you explain that the Gospel was preached first to the Jew then to the Genitile. The first converts to Christianity were the Jews. Gentiles were not even preached to until the Gospel was first preached to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria then to the utermost part of the world.

Please tell me where the nation of Isreal was exluded from the body of Christ. If you are still looking for the kingdom of God to be an earthly kingdom ruled from natural Isreal with the nation of Isreal as primary source, God already did that for about 4 thousand years before the advent of Christ. Now God rules in the temple of our hearts, the forever plan of God. God is not going to go back to a earthly rule, that would be going back wards, and God does not go back wards.

[samuelofisrael]

In order for you to NOT believe in the Biblical Restoration of Israel would be to reject too many OT prophecies and even the teaching of the Apostle to the gentiles.

Several passages attests to the recovery of Jacob, their gathering to the Father's Love, the receiving of Messiah, the destruction of the nations [goyim] that threaten the Chosen Nation.



Ro 11:1-36

11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.


Shalom

[Godsdrummer]

samuelofisrael
My point exactly how can one restore what has not been rejected.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

The very opeining statment of this chapter states, the very opposite of what you are trying to prove. While God may destroy a portion or part of Isreal that are in disobediance to him.
"Isreal has been blinded in part" what part was blinded? Those that crucified the Lord and rejected him. Those are the ones God destroyed, the rest of Isreal were no more blinded than you and I are when the Gospel come to us and we reject it out of hand.

While you referance OT prophecies as needing to be fulfilled, must I remind you that according to Christ his comming fulfilled all the prophecies of the OT.

The problem I see is that as with Isreal at the time of Christ they were looking for a litural physical fulfillment. The lamb laying with the lion. the nation of Isreal trading places with Rome as world dictators. This was never the intention of God.

God's kingdom is not one that rules in the manner of dictatorship, God's kingdom rules from the throne of Love in the heart of his creation.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

...While you referance OT prophecies as needing to be fulfilled, must I remind you that according to Christ his comming fulfilled all the prophecies of the OT. ....

All OT prophecies have been fulfilled? Nothing remains to be fulfilled?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Sam

All OT prophecies have been fulfilled? Nothing remains to be fulfilled?

No Sam I don't believe there are any OT prophecies that have not been fulfilled. I believe we in the western world get too wrapped up in litural fulfillment of things, when OT prophecy was written with Jewish idioms and symbolism.

What was the primary reason the religious leaders of Christ day did not accept him as Messiah? According to every scripture I read Christ fulfilled everything OT prophecy stated he would do. I believe they rejected his because they were carnal looking for a earthly throne, not a spiritual kingdom. They as do we want God to come wipe out all those that oppose Christianity. Only those men wanted God to wipe out those that opposed Judism. This was never God's intention, "for God so love the (whole) world".

We look for this while at the same time we have not learned the very basic principle Jesus taught us "Love your nieghbor as ourselves" , we can't even love our fellow Christian that has a differing oppinion as us. Let along Love God with our whole heart mind and soul.

[samuelofisrael]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

samuelofisrael
My point exactly how can one restore what has not been rejected.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

The very opeining statment of this chapter states, the very opposite of what you are trying to prove. While God may destroy a portion or part of Isreal that are in disobediance to him.
"Isreal has been blinded in part" what part was blinded? Those that crucified the Lord and rejected him. Those are the ones God destroyed, the rest of Isreal were no more blinded than you and I are when the Gospel come to us and we reject it out of hand.

While you referance OT prophecies as needing to be fulfilled, must I remind you that according to Christ his comming fulfilled all the prophecies of the OT.

The problem I see is that as with Isreal at the time of Christ they were looking for a litural physical fulfillment. The lamb laying with the lion. the nation of Isreal trading places with Rome as world dictators. This was never the intention of God.

God's kingdom is not one that rules in the manner of dictatorship, God's kingdom rules from the throne of Love in the heart of his creation.

The revival and restoration of the nation of Israel is yet future. Paul declares the same.

Yeshua has yet to fulfill several OT prophecies. I am not aware the germane prophetic utterances of Zechariah 10, 11, 12 have been fulfilled.

No, the thought that all has been fulfilled is a palpable error.

When the hour arrives for the remnant of Jacob to receive Yeshua it will come to pass as surely as His First arrival. Israel rejection is not final, they shall again be grafted in. We, the gentiles are the wild branch grafted into the Good Olive Tree. We are warned not to become high minded but rather to fear. What was broken off can be grafted in again and so that is the destiny of the future believing remnant of Israel.

Hebrews 9:28 ...

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

As He appeared the first time, in His Person, corporeal presence so shall He again arrive [PAROUSIA] as promised in Zechariah. But, ONLY for those who look for Him. Is it to be said that those who do NOT look for Him He does NOT bring salvation?

As a missive to the Hebrews it is stated that those who are of the Faith will be seeking His Presence and will be satisified.

IF you are a Full Preterit I understand your position. However, whatever your present position, when it comes to the issue of OT prophecy and one is to say, "all has been fulfilled," then I must respectfully agree to disagree. It is futile to post passage owing to the fact the opponent understands it much differently than I and so there can be no consensus.

Shalom.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by samuelofisrael

The revival and restoration of the nation of Israel is yet future. Paul declares the same.

Yeshua has yet to fulfill several OT prophecies. I am not aware the germane prophetic utterances of Zechariah 10, 11, 12 have been fulfilled.

No, the thought that all has been fulfilled is a palpable error.

When the hour arrives for the remnant of Jacob to receive Yeshua it will come to pass as surely as His First arrival. Israel rejection is not final, they shall again be grafted in. We, the gentiles are the wild branch grafted into the Good Olive Tree. We are warned not to become high minded but rather to fear. What was broken off can be grafted in again and so that is the destiny of the future believing remnant of Israel.

Hebrews 9:28 ...

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

As He appeared the first time, in His Person, corporeal presence so shall He again arrive [PAROUSIA] as promised in Zechariah. But, ONLY for those who look for Him. Is it to be said that those who do NOT look for Him He does NOT bring salvation?

As a missive to the Hebrews it is stated that those who are of the Faith will be seeking His Presence and will be satisified.

IF you are a Full Preterit I understand your position. However, whatever your present position, when it comes to the issue of OT prophecy and one is to say, "all has been fulfilled," then I must respectfully agree to disagree. It is futile to post passage owing to the fact the opponent understands it much differently than I and so there can be no consensus.

Shalom.

Don't have much time this morning, but would like to direct your attention to the verse you referance in Hebrews.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Has Christ not entered heaven already, to offer himself? Paul says he has entered heaven, not only that but Paul states this is the end of the world. What world?

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This verse states Christ appears to each and every one of us that lood for him. Not some reapearing at the end, the end has already come as Paul stated. Christ appears to you and I and each and every one that looks for him, Jew and Gentile the same.

Did God cut all the branches from the Olive tree? No he did not as seen by the many Jewish converts in the early church. God cut the bad branches off and destroyed them, just as he said he would. Ie Jerusalem destruction, and temple.

Today God appears to anyone that looks for him.

[Monterrey]

Nope.