DA No Longer an OP

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. I John 3:15

you mean john 4:15. Could there be a difference between God dwelling in you and the holy ghost dwelling in you through spirit baptism?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Aside from DA's status, I know many charismatics that believe initial evidence of the Holy Ghost is speaking in tongues.

Then I would say they are Pentecostal, not Charismatic

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

But the modern versions of Oneness are wittling away great truth so that soon one wont be able to tell much difference between Oneness and Trinity imo.

That is so far from the truth brother you don't even realize it. Oneness has at it's core the view that God is One Person not Three. The so called "modern version" has in no way changed that nor the idea that Jesus is God. It simply seeks to clarify that Oneness sees a distinction between Father and Son. It's NOT a step in the direction of the Trinity

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

The problem with the initial evidence doctrine is that if one really holds to it then everyone who has never spoken in tongues is lost, no exceptions. That and of course that it is absent from scripture.

First of all, that is not true.

Second, why is that a problem? Everyone draws a line somewhere except the Universal Reconciliationists

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

you mean john 4:15. Could there be a difference between God dwelling in you and the holy ghost dwelling in you through spirit baptism?

I would love to see proof of that by the scriptures. The only place we can find out WHEN someone receives the Spirit is the book of Acts, as far as I can tell. The Spirit is given to those who have faith but the real question lies in WHEN it happens. Does it happen at faith? Frankly, I don't see any difference in the baptism of the Spirit and the initial indwelling of the Spirit.

1 John 4:14 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Then I would say they are Pentecostal, not Charismatic

That would be correct.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

First of all, that is not true.

Second, why is that a problem? Everyone draws a line somewhere except the Universal Reconciliationists

yep...

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That is so far from the truth brother you don't even realize it. Oneness has at it's core the view that God is One Person not Three. The so called "modern version" has in no way changed that nor the idea that Jesus is God. It simply seeks to clarify that Oneness sees a distinction between Father and Son. It's NOT a step in the direction of the Trinity

As Sabin would say it is not a matter of two but two what. To say there is a distinction is only begging the question of why type of distinction. In the end IMO most trinitarian theology no matter the screaming and yelling of no, creates multiple Gods. It is nothing but a hybrid form of Tritheism that says because of sharing one "........." it makes it not. Basically IMO that is nothing but a model to make it acceptable/palatable as some level monotheism.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

you mean john 4:15. Could there be a difference between God dwelling in you and the holy ghost dwelling in you through spirit baptism?

When we invite Jesus into our lives, He accepts that invitation and comes in to dwell as the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Ghost Baptism (HGB) is a separate work of the Spirit which happens after He comes in to dwell. The HGB is the Spirit coming upon, or falling upon a person.

This is from page 83 of a book titled Charisma Versus Charismania by Chuck Smith copyright 1992 and describes the difference.

The Spirit and the Believer
There are three Greek prepositions used in the New Testament
to designate the different relationships of the Spirit
to the believer: para, en, and epi. In John 14:17 Jesus said
to His disciples concerning the Holy Spirit, “Ye know him;
for he dwelleth with [para] you and shall be in [en] you.”
Here a twofold relationship is expressed: para (with) and en
(in). The Holy Spirit was with us prior to our conversion. He
is the One who brought us conviction of sin and revealed
Christ as the answer. When we accepted Jesus as our Savior
and invited Him into our lives, the Holy Spirit began to
indwell us.

But God has something more—the beautiful empowering
through the epi relationship. Note that this is what
Jesus was promising His disciples just prior to His ascension.
In Luke 24:49 He said, “Behold, I send the promise of
my Father upon [epi] you” or “over you.” In Acts 1:8 He
said, “But ye shall receive power after that the Holy [Spirit]
is come upon [epi] you.”

We read in Acts 10:44 that the Holy Spirit descended
“upon” the Gentile believers in the house of Cornelius:
“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy [Spirit] fell
upon [epi] all of them which heard the word.” In Acts 19:6,
when Paul laid hands upon the Ephesian believers, the
Holy Spirit came upon [epi] them.

We read in Acts 8 that Philip had gone to Samaria and
preached Christ unto them; many people believed Philip’s
preaching of the things of the kingdom of God and the
name of Jesus Christ, and they were baptized. If there is
just one baptism (Ephesians 4:5), then we must accept that
at this point the Samaritan believers were baptized by the
Spirit into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13), and the
Holy Spirit began to indwell them. It is obvious, however,
that there was yet a further relationship to the Holy Spirit
to be received, for when the church in Jerusalem heard that
the Samaritans had received the gospel, they sent Peter and
John unto them that they might pray for them to receive
the Holy Spirit, for as yet He had fallen upon [epi] none of
them.

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by Sam

When we invite Jesus into our lives, He accepts that invitation and comes in to dwell as the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Ghost Baptism (HGB) is a separate work of the Spirit which happens after He comes in to dwell. The HGB is the Spirit coming upon, or falling upon a person.

This is from page 83 of a book titled Charisma Versus Charismania by Chuck Smith copyright 1992 and describes the difference.

The Spirit and the Believer
There are three Greek prepositions used in the New Testament
to designate the different relationships of the Spirit
to the believer: para, en, and epi. In John 14:17 Jesus said
to His disciples concerning the Holy Spirit, “Ye know him;
for he dwelleth with [para] you and shall be in [en] you.”
Here a twofold relationship is expressed: para (with) and en
(in). The Holy Spirit was with us prior to our conversion. He
is the One who brought us conviction of sin and revealed
Christ as the answer. When we accepted Jesus as our Savior
and invited Him into our lives, the Holy Spirit began to
indwell us.

But God has something more—the beautiful empowering
through the epi relationship. Note that this is what
Jesus was promising His disciples just prior to His ascension.
In Luke 24:49 He said, “Behold, I send the promise of
my Father upon [epi] you” or “over you.” In Acts 1:8 He
said, “But ye shall receive power after that the Holy [Spirit]
is come upon [epi] you.”

We read in Acts 10:44 that the Holy Spirit descended
“upon” the Gentile believers in the house of Cornelius:
“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy [Spirit] fell
upon [epi] all of them which heard the word.” In Acts 19:6,
when Paul laid hands upon the Ephesian believers, the
Holy Spirit came upon [epi] them.

We read in Acts 8 that Philip had gone to Samaria and
preached Christ unto them; many people believed Philip’s
preaching of the things of the kingdom of God and the
name of Jesus Christ, and they were baptized. If there is
just one baptism (Ephesians 4:5), then we must accept that
at this point the Samaritan believers were baptized by the
Spirit into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13), and the
Holy Spirit began to indwell them. It is obvious, however,
that there was yet a further relationship to the Holy Spirit
to be received, for when the church in Jerusalem heard that
the Samaritans had received the gospel, they sent Peter and
John unto them that they might pray for them to receive
the Holy Spirit, for as yet He had fallen upon [epi] none of
them.

sam, what verse or veses do you use to believe that the holy spirit indwells at faith/repentance?