Big Brother's Syndrome: They Shall Know You By ...

[DAII]

Here's the crazy thing ... TW is slamming the national works that have kept the "brand name" but if memory serves when Stairs left the org ... he started a separate mission board that ... I believe retained the United Pentecostal Church name in Canada .... along with the United Pentecostal Church of Colombia ...

The two splinter groups commissioned Larsen and his own dad, Bill Drost ... who left the International ... during the Canadian/Colombian rift of the mid 1960's ...

Stairs and several of the Canadian brethren left because they were discontent with percentage of money that missionaries were getting ...

Sociologist Cornelia Butler Flora writes in her book Pentecostalism in Colombia, Baptism by Spirit and Fire:

Division in the United Pentecostal Church in North America affected Colombian Pentecostals. Brother Stairs, of the Canadian Branch of the United Pentecostal Church, led a separation movement of Canadian churches from the parent body.

A separate Canadian mission board was set up. The Larsens, in Colombia, and the Drosts, now in Uruguay, went with the Canadian branch of the church, becoming their missionaries, financially dependent upon them instead of the United States. The Thompson and Morleys stayed with the U.S. branch of the church. The U.S. church was given Colombia as a missions field. The Canadians began urging the Colombian Pentecostals to separate for the United States, make themselves independent and join in partnership with the Canadians.

Nationalization allowed the Colombian Church to work more closely with the Canadians. Conflict ensued between the Canadian and American interests in Colombia, the former being represented by the Larsens and the latter by the Thompsons and the Morleys.

The Larsen's daughter married a Colombian believer, and together with the Drosts and another Colombian couple were the first Latin American missionaries to Spain, funded jointly by the Colombian and Canadian United Pentecostal Churches.

The new constitution that came with nationalization relegated the missionaries that were in Colombia to an advisory role and explicitly forbade new foreign missionaries to enter the country. The missionaries were now to report their actions to the national junta, which would then decide whether or not the missionaries could go ahead with their proposed projects (pg 64).

source:
http://books.google.com/books?id=8MC...larsen&f=false

This would appear to be an indictment of his own father and Wynn Stairs, as well ... for using the UPC name.

In the coming days I hope to get my hands on primary documents that show the work in Canada used this name.

[DAII]

Quite frankly, I believe TWD is in denial as to his own history.

In speaking of the common doctrine of the merger he seemingly glosses over the fundamental doctrine which states that the elements found in Acts 2:38 is the full biblical standard of salvation but rather stating both sides agreed that Acts 2:38 is the plan of salvation.

And what is this doctrine? The religiously passionate belief that (1) there is only One God who was manifest in the flesh in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ; (2) that the plan of salvation is found in Acts 2:38; emphasizing baptism in water in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, with the receipt of the Holy Ghost, with the initial sign of speaking in another tongue; (3) and that we must live a life of holiness, separated from the world (not so much from our communities, but in obedience) and dedicated to the Lord.

Most would agree that those who held a PCI view or one step view of salvation would quibble with such a statement while preaching and believing hard on the Acts 2:38 experience.

But it seems that TWD denies the fact that his own father, Bill Drost held a one step view on salvation. One has to question what his motive is for this?

In his correspondence with Thomas Fudge who wrote Christianity Without The Cross. he says as much ... despite his mother and siblings saying to the contrary ... his fellow ministers acknowledging Bill's one step view ... and Wynn Stairs writing him to tell him that his dad held a one step view.

Wynn Drost would later write that his dad had intentions of returning to the UPCI while acknowledging his dad had a Water and Spirit view but later was less so because of Wynn Stair's influence.



Revise, revise, revise.

[DAII]

The United Pentecostal Church International – of which the IPUM is affiliated – is the largest organization, or religious group, of the Name, in the world. Today it reports more than 2,588,496 members in all of the world; with 25,523 credentialed ministers and 25,043 churches.


Even in the Hispanic world, WE ARE the largest organization of the Name – which includes all of Latin America, Hispanics in the United States and Canada, plus the Hispanics in all of Europe and other parts. In the all the Hispanic world, we have more than 5,707 ministers, more than 7,197 churches and 678,541 members. Or, the Hispanics of the UPCI represent one fourth of the total – and we keep growing!

Then there are the stats.

The UPCI.org says there are over 4 million worldwide ... but I also know Drost's stats are more current than the org's stats which are circa 2007

The United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI) has been among the fastest growing church organizations in North America since it was formed in 1945 by the merger of the Pentecostal Church, Incorporated, and the Pentecostal Assemblies of Jesus Christ. From 617 churches listed in 1946, the UPCI in North America (United States and Canada) today lists 4,358 churches (which includes 4099 autonomous and 258 daughter works), 9,085 ministers, and reports a Sunday School attendance of 646,304.

Moreover, it is also located in 175 other nations with 22,881 licensed ministers, 28,351 churches and meeting places, 652 missionaries, and a foreign constituency of over 3 million, making a total worldwide constituency of more than 4,036,945.

Did the 1.5 million go in the secret rapture (not found in the bible)?

[DAII]

I think the leadership of the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World ... needs to lash out against the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada and the Pentecostal Assemblies of Jesus Christ .... calling them pirates, thieves and imitators

[DAII]

T. Wynn ... were they expelled from the AG in a religious ambush or did they leave?

Many ministers “of the Name” had wished and waited for this moment for more than 30 years. Why? Because in 1914, when a group of pioneer Pentecostals formed the first pentecostal organization – which became the Assemblies of God – a group of “the Name” felt betrayed and left, two years later, when they adopted the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity as part of their Creed. The Oneness group, which included leaders who had convocated the first assembly, felt like they were “expelled” in a religious ambush.

Or did they, the 125 or so, withdraw as stated in your org's history ...

The UPCI emerged out of the Pentecostal movement that began in Topeka, Kansas in 1901. It traces its organizational roots to October 1916, when a large group of ministers withdrew from the Assemblies of God over the doctrinal issues of the oneness of God and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

[DAII]

How reliable are any of these stats ... let's take TWD's Mexico for instance:

In 2006, the annual report regarding Mexico states:

According to the 2006 Annual Field Report, the UPC of Mexico has 44,686 constituents, 477 ministers, and 663 churches and preaching points.

Source: http://www.foreignmissions.com//modu...ads/Mexico.pdf

For argument's sake these are as of 2005 .... there are about 45,000 constituents

A Focal Points newsletter reporting growth numbers for 2007-2008 in Mexico state the following:

In the past 5 years
17,896 were baptized and 19,247 received
the Holy Ghost.

In 2007, 3,630 were baptized and 4,194
received the Holy Ghost.

There is now a church in every state in
Mexico with a combined constituency of 78,000

Source: http://www.foreignmissions.com//modu...#37;200901.pdf

Presently the IPUM website states there about 80,000 constituents.

Do the math .... it doesn't add up.

If from 2003-2008 ... let's say 20,000 received the Holy Ghost and were baptized (and we'll count them all as staying and as members)

and in 2005 there were 45,000
and in 2008 there are 78,00 .... what's the growth rate like ???? ... wow.

How can this be? Maybe they're coming in from other Apostolic organizations? Extraordinarily high birth rate during this 3 year span?
Not all these are adults with families?

How are we defining constituency?

[DAII]

Originally Posted by DAII

How are we defining constituency?

Well, let's use the IPUM's original definition of constituents ... those baptized in Jesus name ...

A look at this historical growth rate through their website in the Wayback Machine:

Nov. 2007




http://replay.waybackmachine.org/200...et/index2.html


-------------------------------------------
July 2008:



http://replay.waybackmachine.org/200...enes-somos.htm

--------------------

My only question is when were there just 30,000 baptized in Jesus name ... This looks like it was an older site page:




http://www.ipumex.net/QuienesSomosP.htm#Todo comenzó en Pentecostés

[DAII]

Well, well ... if you turn over enough stones you'll uncover more than expected .... and some things just fall on your lap

The following attachment is being dubbed a manifesto of sorts by his ministerial peers.

.. an article sent to Headquarters written by Thomas Wynn Drost ... last year that was "dealt with internally" as it is highly critical with how Foreign Missions Division operates.

(Seems he's on a roll!)

Although I agree with a lot of the sentiments expressed in the letter especially as it deals with the increasing centralized power of St. Louis, the original intent of the formation of the UPCI and some great ideas about moving forward ... There is quite a bit of dripping irony permeating from it as the nationalists in other countries, such as his native Colombia, have expressed some of sentiments decades ago.

One has to wonder what exactly is floating in TW's mind when he in one breath accuses the UPCI of having a "controlling" and " colonialist" mindset while alienating a large segment of the Latin American Apostolic Oneness movement by making them out to be "pirates", "thieves", and "imitators" ...

I can't imagine this sat very well with the FMD director, board or the General Board

What the end game in all of this ... is very puzzling.

Here is a brief excerpt:

What I am seeking is that we improve our Organization; that we seek better structures and better mechanisms so that we can enlarge our Work and make it more efficient and more productive. A lot has been accomplished, but we can still do a whole lot better. I believe we can strive to improve our effort so that we can better fulfill the Great Commission of taking the Gospel “unto all the world, and to every creature”.

I ask that the labor and accomplishments that have been attained in the various countries around the world be respected, especially, where the Church has grown and developed. That the leaders be treated as mature and responsible leaders - as adults, and not as children, nor as nobodies. It’s like sons who grow up and become adults: mother has to quit changing their “baby’s” diapers, she has to potty train him; eventually let go of his hand so that he can walk alone; allow him to go to school by himself and; some day, that he marry, form a family and live by himself; and that the parents respect him as an adult!

We must reject that colonialist and controlling mentality that is deterring the growth and development of the Church of God in so many countries of the world today; that is only causing indignation, and the humiliation of capable and responsible leaders who continue to be treated as “second class” citizens. That is not biblical, for the Bible says we are not to Lord it over anyone: 2 Peter 5:3.

There is also a section that deals with his thoughts on the term "United Pentecostal International" ... and some history that I will seek to verify.

But really TW ... you act like Big Brother in your letter slamming other Oneness believers and then turn around and essentially call the bureaucracy that has covered you for so long, "Big Brother" ... *scratching my head*.

(Note to Admin) Please read TW's own disclaimer about the distribution of this communicatio

PS. Considering the means of communication that exists today, I know that this article will be shared with others. Therefore, I prefer to write something that might be a bit extensive, but seeks to better explain things, and not just a few short words - which have a greater possibility of being misunderstood, or miss used. We offer the present writing hoping to provoke dialogue. Therefore, we are not prohibiting the distribution, but only ask that it not be changed or edited.

[DAII]

A GS of Mexico and Missionary stating FMD in recent years has represented stangnation, control and setting back:

In the last few years certain unhealthy tendencies keep developing
in the administration of the FMD that do not represent efforts for the growth, development and expansion of the Church around the world, but rather stagnation, control and setting back. It would appear as if, more and more, they are more interested in being recognized as authorities over the Church worldwide. That isn’t merely speculation, but they openly say it. In other words,they see themselves as world leaders that all others must listen to and obey.Foreign Missions insists on being the only portal or access point for anyone outside of North America who wants to go, or is invited to minister in the U.S. and/or Canada. In other words, they want to become “the Border Patrol” of the UPCI.

It is not acting as the United Pentecostal International but rather the United Pentecostal Church of North America?:

But, in truth, the United Pentecostal Church International is the name used by the United Pentecostal Church of North America.

In recent years it is becoming more obvious the new meaning that is being given to the
word “International” in the name. It is now being used as if the of the UPCI are the leaders of the Church in the whole world, when the By-Laws of the UPC in each country around the world do not recognize that. Instead, after the Lord Jesus Christ, and after the National Assembly of Ministers in each country, the maximum authority is the President or Superintendent of the Church in that particular country. Nothing is said about the General Superintendent of the UPCI, nor is the General Director of Foreign Missions mentioned or recognized – neither is the Regional Director recognized.]

Seems the GS of Mexico wants it known they are not rulers of the world ... yikes. And that he's the maximum authority in his country.

[commonsense]

I enjoy the history of Pentecost. (notice I did not say UPC)
DA, thanks for your research and sharing it with us.

I'm sure you will "uncover" more.