Please note.
Neither of the two posts above are authored from me personally...I found them on the web.
I am just a farm boy...but I do love to research and read alot.
I am inclined to believe that we existed as spiritual beings of sorts (sons of God) before coming to earth to become human beings.
Our spirits come from God is pretty much accepted by everyone and our spirits will at death return to God who gave it, but WHEN we actually began is open to speculation.
Peace, AJS
There is an eye-witness account of heaven that bears this out. Jesse Duplantis has been there!
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I'm sorry, but I do not think this is a spiritual representation of something. Ezikeal describes this very well on more than one occasion, and he describes the noise it made and what happened to the earth when it moved up or down. Of course we have to take into account that Ezikeal has never heard nor seen an airplane or any other flying machine. So his base of reference is zero, he is simply describing what he is seeing the best way he can, and he gives an accurate account of a flying machine we have today. In my opinion, this does not fit into our contemporary view of the bible box, and I am open to the possibility that this was an actual machine used by the beings on board, beings as in plural, because it was more than one creature on board.
This could very well be an extra terrestrial sighting in the bible.
Hey no problem but when it comes to UFO's and ET's call me doubting Thomas. I won't say they don't exist but unless I see one, I don't buy it. I heard one person years back say that Ezekiel was describing a helicopter.
Personally I see this as symbolism and since it's over 2,000 + years old, it's gonna take some work and research to find out what exactly he's talking about. A spiritual description of the laver and the altar with wheels is the only thing that makes sense if you look up some of the words in the Hebrew..
From what I've experienced the "Bible Box" is typically something physical and literal, rarely is it ever Spiritual..
The New Testament testifies to the Book of Enoch’s influence among the Apostles. If the Book of Enoch is inspired of God, one has to take serious consideration that God left it out of the Bible for a reason. Only the most serious and studious of the faith should begin to tackle the secrets contained in this book.
I'm sorry, but I don't believe God left it out, God never took credit for creating a collection of books called the bible. "And to you I bestow this bible and to the Catholics i bestow this bible"...wasn't it Constantine or whom ever. Regardless Men put this library together to unite the faith, and some books were left out simply because they didn't fit into the time-line. What about the catholic bible with Maccabees and the Torah. That's just 2 examples of commonly accepted inspired books that encompass a different library or bible. Also I don't believe the bible is complete either. I'm not going to take another man's word for what I should or should not read or deem acceptable inspired literature. If it was good enough for Paul and the writers of Jude, then it's good enough for me.
I'm sorry, but I don't believe God left it out, God never took credit for creating a collection of books called the bible. "And to you I bestow this bible and to the Catholics i bestow this bible"...wasn't it Constantine or whom ever. Regardless Men put this library together to unite the faith, and some books were left out simply because they didn't fit into the time-line. What about the catholic bible with Maccabees and the Torah. That's just 2 examples of commonly accepted inspired books that encompass a different library or bible. Also I don't believe the bible is complete either. I'm not going to take another man's word for what I should or should not read or deem acceptable inspired literature. If it was good enough for Paul and the writers of Jude, then it's good enough for me.
Hey no problem but when it comes to UFO's and ET's call me doubting Thomas. I won't say they don't exist but unless I see one, I don't buy it. I heard one person years back say that Ezekiel was describing a helicopter.
Personally I see this as symbolism and since it's over 2,000 + years old, it's gonna take some work and research to find out what exactly he's talking about. A spiritual description of the laver and the altar with wheels is the only thing that makes sense if you look up some of the words in the Hebrew..
From what I've experienced the "Bible Box" is typically something physical and literal, rarely is it ever Spiritual..
I see Ezekiel's vision as spiritual symbolism too.
Regarding UFO's and ET's.... Alien Obsession is a great book that addresses these things. It appears that these things may be a spiritual delusion. Reason being our "space brothers" appear to always relay a message contrary to the Gospel, but in line with New Age thinking. This is why you'll find books on UFO's and ET's in the Occult section at the book store. Pagans have legends of flying long ships and "gods" blah, blah, blah. I think it's the same ol' girl, different dress.
and you may be surprised of what you find when you look up that dress. lol
My stance is that I don't necessarily believe in UFO's and stuff, but I do believe in the possibility.
My best interpretation without doing extensive research would be that Ezekiel was describing a Spiritual depiction of the brazen laver which did have wheels in the literal sense to help move it around. And this is just a guess because I'm very uncomfortable in explaining all the symbolism in the bible to say otherwise.
I wouldn't say God needed a spaceship but that the children of Israel used lavers, altars, and animal sacrifices to appease their own consciences. This process or this ritual PROBABLY took on an animalistic mindset with the people. Maybe not as bad as the Mayans offering up their own children and brethren but there had to be some carnality involved to say the least. I say this because in other passages God voices His displeasure in the blood offerings...
EXCELLENT post, I agre with much of this. It certainly makes MORe sense that by overreaching as many do, to speak of UFOish, alien vehicle(s)., I believe that to stem from overactive imagination(s) that have no respect for things that only GOD has any business knowing of. I also agree with Aquila's "spiritual delusion" post above the other post above.
__________________ You can tell more about people
by what they say about others...than by what others
say about them.
If you will, please allow me to re-post the passage in question with a translation that I think is far less confusing than most traditional wordings.
Gen 6:1 And it came to be, when Adam began to increase on the face of the ground [adamah], and daughters were born to them,
Gen 6:2 that the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of Adam, that they were good. And they took women for themselves of all whom they chose.
Gen 6:3 And YHWH said, “My Spirit [ruach] shall not strive with Adam forever in his going astray. He is flesh, and his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of Elohim came in to the daughters of Adam and they bore children to them. Those were the courageous who were of old, the men of name.
Gen 6:5 And YHWH saw that the wickedness of Adam was great in the land [erets], and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And YHWH was sorry that He had made Adam on the land [erets], and He was grieved in His heart.
I say this is less confusing, because the terminology is more cut and dry--left intact, not clouded quite as much with traditional English literature, which has bred a considerable amount of supposition on the part of every side taken in interpreting this Scripture.
One camp insists that the sons of Elohim are naughty angels, noting that they are seen elsewhere in Scripture, presenting themselves to YHWH. They are, however, never referred to as such. We have simply assumed that everyone and everything that is seen in the presence of God is an "angel." This is not the case--the Hebrews had no sacred terminology. Every word they used had a meaning, and what we have translated "angel" is no different. A spirit, or a person, or whatever else, is called a "messenger" because he fulfills that purpose. The sons of Elohim are not sent as envoys, and they are not called "messengers."
Nevertheless, this view is supported by the controversial "Book of Enoch," written down in the 2nd century B.C. Because this work is quoted in the epistle of Jude, those who wish to gain credibility from it insist that it is the Word of God in its entirety. Anyone who reads this work, however, notices a sharp change in its nature after the 5th chapter, immediately leaping from prophecy and proverbial philosophy to a mythical epic of various pagan-god-like beings who skip down from heaven to breed with women and set all of mankind in disarray. All of this happening, of course, after Enoch is clearly said to have ascended in Genesis.
Aside from all of this, consider God Himself. Where is the justice in what God is doing under this paradigm? God allows his angels to descend to earth, take women and breed with them. Mankind has no power to stop them, and mankind is, naturally, corrupted by them. Somehow this is man's fault? God is going to kill every man, woman, child, and beast on the face of the planet for the insubordination of his messengers, which the victims of his judgment were powerless to stop? That sounds like a tyrant to me.
On the other hand, to escape these wild tantrums of human imagination, some wish to argue that these "Sons of God" are the line of Seth, who loved God, but then polluted their lineage by marrying riotous pagan women from Cain's seed. This claim has its own problems.
First, why didn't the Scripture just say "sons of Seth?" Secondly, this view ignores another important detail from the original language, which English translations would do well not to hide:
The Scripture says, "The Sons of Elohim saw the daughters of Adam." The sons of Seth were the sons of Adam. The daughters of Cain were also the daughters of Adam. The problem here is not that the daughters of Adam were corrupting the Sons of Elohim, but that the daughters of Adam were given to the Sons of Elohim, and Adam is corrupted as a result.
Both sides make a couple of other assumptions based on Christian tradition and our own interpretation of the English. Both sides read "God" and assume that it is referring to...well, God. "Elohim," however, has its own meaning, and "God" covers only part of that meaning's conveyance to English. The same thing goes for Adam.
Also, both sides assume, and dogmatically insist, that immediately after Adam's fall there were only 2 human beings walking the entire planet. Not only would this view require Eve to reproduce like an insect, but it denies the clear and unmistakable fact that the Bible places Adam in a world where he and his children are not the only people who exist.
Jesus said angels don't marry so this passage can simply be interpreted, sons of the righteous had children with daughters of the unrighteous, meaning people not literally angels from heaven. This is obviously a metaphor, unless we are misinterpreting what Jesus said below.
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
I personally don't believe the angels in heaven have reproductive organs because they are spirits...
Jesus said angels don't marry so this passage can simply be interpreted, sons of the righteous had children with daughters of the unrighteous, meaning people not literally angels from heaven. This is obviously a metaphor, unless we are misinterpreting what Jesus said below.
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
I personally don't believe the angels in heaven have reproductive organs because they are spirits...
While Jesus implies that angels "neither marry, nor are given in marriage", Christ nowhere indicates that angels are incapable of taking a physical form, nor does Jesus indicate what they are or are not capable of while in that physical form. All Christ's words specify is that angels do not marry. The Scriptures show Jacob wrestling with an angel until the breaking of the day. Obviously physical, tangible, and capable of fighting. We see two angels visiting Abraham with the LORD. While visiting Abraham these angelic beings were served food and did eat.
Genesis 18:1-8
{18:1} And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of
Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
{18:2} And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three
men stood by him: and when he saw [them,] he ran to meet
them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the
ground, {18:3} And said, My Lord, if now I have found
favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy
servant: {18:4} Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and
wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: {18:5}
And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your
hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come
to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
{18:6} And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and
said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal,
knead [it,] and make cakes upon the hearth. {18:7} And
Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and
good, and gave [it] unto a young man; and he hasted to
dress it. {18:8} And he took butter, and milk, and the calf
which he had dressed, and set [it] before them; and he stood
by them under the tree, and they did eat.
If angels can eat while manifested in physical form on earth, what other biological functions are they capable of? I’m proposing to you that whatever form they take is complete and fully functional because we have no indication otherwise. Yes, if an angel remained in physical form long enough, he’d have to use the bathroom after eating. And so, I present to you that, if an angel was manifested in physical form, they could copulate. No doubt this would be a grievous sin in God’s eyes. And indeed it was.
The term “sons of God” is used in Job in relation to angelic beings:
Job 1:6
{1:6} Now there was a day when the sons of God came to
present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also
among them.
Writings from ancient times such as Josephus and others indicate that it was the common opinion of the ancients that the “sons of God” (bene-ha elohim) were angelic beings. Those who lived in the culture wherein the Scripture was written, and actually read and wrote the language it was written in, testify to the fact that the “sons of God” were angelic beings.
The opinion you espouse (the sons of Seth theory) doesn’t add up. First, why would they be called the “sons of God” if doing such wickedness? Second, why would their children be giants?
Also we have the testimony of the New Testament:
2 Peter 2:4
{2:4} For if God spared not the angels that
sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them]
into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
We know that this isn’t speaking about Satan and the demonic forces we wrestle with today, because they are not bound and are in fact warring against God and destroying mankind as we speak. So who are these “angels that sinned”? And what was their sin? Notice, Peter speaks of it as a presupposition. That means the readers knew exactly what Peter was talking about. This means that this sinful class of angels is indeed mentioned in Scripture. So the question is now, where in Scripture are these angels and their sin mentioned? You leave it an open ended mystery and thereby we are less informed than those Peter wrote to and are left guessing. Those of us who hold the angelic theory have the answer.
Let’s get a little more specific. What was the nature of the sin these angels perpetrated? Jude says something interesting…
Jude 1:6
{1:6} And the angels which kept not their first
estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in
everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the
great day. {1:7} Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the
cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to
fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an
example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
While the text doesn’t specifically say, we read how these fallen angels are implicated along with Sodom and Gomorrha, who gave themselves over to fornication, and went after "strange flesh". The implication…sexual sin. It is implied that these angels had unlawful copulation. Now, where else in Scripture would we find this but Genesis 6?
Not to mention, the “bene-ha-elohim” angelic theory is part of comprehensive demonology acknowledged by the ancients in the Dead See Scrolls. You see, we are not merely dealing with superiorly intelligent and diabolical fallen angels, but we are dealing with rather impish and simple minded “unclean spirits”. Without becoming far more involved than necessary, “unclean spirits”, were regarded to be the spirits of the “giants”, the Nephilim. When these drowned in the flood, their spirits were released from their bodies. Being neither human nor devil there was no place assigned unto them. Therefore they were left to roam this world’s spiritual wasteland. These spirits seek bodies to inhabit. Why? They wish to live once more so that they can live out their lusts. When a person, “sins”, they position themselves as targets for these “unclean spirits”. If these spirits oppress, isolate, and possess a person, they will drive them deeper and deeper into sin until the individual is destroyed. Many lives and families have been wrecked by these spiritual locusts. Once the sinful individual dies, their soul is lost.
We don’t wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers. These are just one class of “demon” we are up against. Now, we’re down the road of discussing the value of both prayer and fasting in “deliverance” sessions. These are frightening and I’ve only attended two. But Jesus said specifically,
Mark 16:17
{16:17} And these signs shall follow them that believe; In
my name shall they cast out devils;…
Deliverance from demonic forces is an essential part of Christian ministry. The New Testament is riddled with accounts of Christ and/or the Apostles casting out devils. I believe that this is such a vague ministry in today’s church because we don’t understand exactly what we’re up against.
One last point, the Book of Enoch is DIRECTLY referenced in Jude 14-15:
"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these [men], saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
Compare this with Enoch 1:9, translated from the Ethiopic (found also in Qumran scroll 4Q204=4QEnochc ar, col I 16-18):
"And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
Why would the Book of Enoch be DIRECTLY referenced in Holy Scripture if it is of absolutely no value??? I believe they knew something we didn’t. Is it possible that God chose not to allow the Book of Enoch to be published with the Cannon to separate it for only the qualified?
The Book of Enoch’s antiquity is established by it’s fragments being found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. So the student has to be the prayerful judge.
The problem is, as I see it, that many today shy away from the supernatural. Things that are disturbing or unexplainable are quickly given more “natural” meanings. I think this comes from lack of faith.
"And to you I bestow this bible and to the Catholics i bestow this bible"...wasn't it Constantine or whom ever. Regardless Men put this library together to unite the faith, and some books were left out simply because they didn't fit into the time-line. What about the catholic bible with Maccabees and the Torah. That's just 2 examples of commonly accepted inspired books that encompass a different library or bible. Also I don't believe the bible is complete either. I'm not going to take another man's word for what I should or should not read or deem acceptable inspired literature. If it was good enough for Paul and the writers of Jude, then it's good enough for me.
It certainly makes MORe sense that by overreaching as many do, to speak of UFOish, alien vehicle(s)., I believe that to stem from overactive imagination(s) that have no respect for things that only GOD has any business knowing of. I also agree with Aquila's "spiritual delusion" post above the other post above. 
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