Healing at IHOP: Student gets out of wheelchair

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I hear your frustration, bind and burden with this.

I have to ask you to consider what the "gifts of healing" are, even though Pentecostalism has been guilty of overlooking the value of suffering that God has sent us to also give Him glory.

Acts 3:16, 4:9-10, 14, 5:16, 8:7, 9:34,

I've wondered about this to. Evidently, the supernatural gift of healing is given to the church to glorify God and increase faith, and ironically is a gift that causes many to stumble in their faith. I think, in large part, this has to do with Pentecostalism's ideas about triumphalism, de-emphasis of suffering and a poorly-developed biblical eschatology.

I'm not bitter about this, and I'm not doubting God because of it. My faith in Christ is, at least, ten times what it was during the years I struggled with pentecostalism. I believe in God's power and I've experienced, first-hand, his hand. I remember one morning when my ulcer was absolutely out of control and I had to preach. I couldn't take a deep breath without yelling, much less, preach a sermon. But I spoke and not for one single second of that sermon did it bother me. I finished, went to my office and fell in the floor groaning in pain.

So I know God's power is real. But sometimes I wonder....I'm just wondering, don't have any evidence.....if God's real healing power is suppressed by these carnival acts. It's always an ambiguous problem...hurt back, bad knees, etc., and not once has it ever been a para or quadriplegic, or a person who absolutely and truly cannot walk, or a long list of other things that are obvious.

If I understand God the way I think I do, I can't imagine he'd want the people-glorifying antics of the Hinn-types to work. But then again, maybe that's just my bad attitude. Either way, I've found a deeper relationship with God and His grace that doesn't need the "Loaves or the fishes."

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by soldoutochrist

Manipulations? I've done extensive research on the International House of Prayer and while I don't agree with all of their doctrine, I've never heard of them deceiving or manipulating.

Go back with the leaders to a time before they created IHOP. Look into the "Kansas City Prophets" and the "Kingdom Now" movement. Mike Bickle was a featured player in both.

[VeridicalAngel]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I'm sorry but as the father of a boy who really IS in a wheelchair and really CAN'T walk, this stuff just really frustrates me. First, we don't see him in the chair, we just see running.

So he starts telling his story and contradicts himself constantly. First he says he was paralyzed from head to toe which is interesting because he's wearing gloves to wheel the chair, that is nowhere NEAR the wheelchair of a paralyzed person...just a basic wheelchair. But then he says he could move his arms, but was just numb and couldn't feel anything.

Then he says he hasn't walked in two months but then says he had been walking with a walker. Then he says it was horribly painful. But wait....I thought he was numb and couldn't feel anything?

Then the other guy says that before the service he could only stand on his heals. What?? I thought he had been in a wheelchair for two months and couldn't walk.

Really frustrating to see this stuff.

Who knows about this video, but my pastor's father really WAS in a wheelchair, paralyzed by a motorcycle accident, and really DID get healed in an Apostolic service. And really DID get up out of his chair and walk!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I hear your frustration, bind and burden with this.

I have to ask you to consider what the "gifts of healing" are, even though Pentecostalism has been guilty of overlooking the value of suffering that God has sent us to also give Him glory.

Acts 3:16, 4:9-10, 14, 5:16, 8:7, 9:34,

I've wondered about this to. Evidently, the supernatural gift of healing is given to the church to glorify God and increase faith, and ironically is a gift that causes many to stumble in their faith. I think, in large part, this has to do with Pentecostalism's ideas about triumphalism, de-emphasis of suffering and a poorly-developed biblical eschatology.

I have a standing offer to meet anyone "with the gift" or who possesses knowledge of how to "activate" such a gift to meet with me outside of a childrens' hospital closest to their home or office.

I dare say, there are few people who authentically want to see these gifts used to the glory of God more than myself.

I agree with your last statement; but shouldn't somebody some where have shown us the way by now?

IHOP's leaders trace their roots through Paul Cain back to the "Healing Revival" of the 1950s under William Branham. For whatever reason (probably a car accident) Branham himself died a slow and agonizingly painful death.

I worked with a man who was once associated with W. Branham. He told of how he and others would wheel gurneys and hospital beds into the Kiel Auditorium in St. Louis and he actually saw some people get up out of those beds. "Some would get up, most wouldn't and we'd have to wheel them back to their ambulances afterward." He said that with evident sorrow on his heart.

I believe God can do "anything!" But the question is, "What is God really doing?"

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by notofworks

So I know God's power is real. But sometimes I wonder....I'm just wondering, don't have any evidence.....if God's real healing power is suppressed by these carnival acts. It's always an ambiguous problem...hurt back, bad knees, etc., and not once has it ever been a para or quadriplegic, or a person who absolutely and truly cannot walk, or a long list of other things that are obvious.

There's a para in my church who has been healed (is in the process of being, I guess..?) He had no feeling or voluntary control of movement below his waist. He does now, he *can* stand, he *can* walk, but his muscles are still very weak. To be honest, it freaks me out. It'd make my life a little more comfortable if I didn't know, every time I look at him, that a few weeks ago he could not stand, walk, control movement, anything. Yeah, he still uses his wheelchair...he's been in it for over 30 years...but I've seen him walking using braces and crutches too. Not even an option before.

I just wish I understood why he got out of the wheelchair when he did, and so many others just never do. It doesn't make sense.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I have a standing offer to meet anyone "with the gift" or who possesses knowledge of how to "activate" such a gift to meet with me outside of a childrens' hospital closest to their home or office.

I dare say, there are few people who authentically want to see these gifts used to the glory of God more than myself.

I agree with your last statement; but shouldn't somebody some where have shown us the way by now?

IHOP's leaders trace their roots through Paul Cain back to the "Healing Revival" of the 1950s under William Branham. For whatever reason (probably a car accident) Branham himself died a slow and agonizingly painful death.

I worked with a man who was once associated with W. Branham. He told of how he and others would wheel gurneys and hospital beds into the Kiel Auditorium in St. Louis and he actually saw some people get up out of those beds. "Some would get up, most wouldn't and we'd have to wheel them back to their ambulances afterward." He said that with evident sorrow on his heart.

I believe God can do "anything!" But the question is, "What is God really doing?"

See, I'm not sure people are designated with the "gift" as much as the "gifts" are available. Does the distinction make sense? For example, God can intervene in a situation and through a person, but that does not mean they are a "healer for hire" and start a national ministry.

That's not to bash all the Healing Revivals (Oral Roberts, Branham, etc), but in the spirit of good intentions has come gross manipulations and human-engineered "supernatural."

I definitely want to see the gifts. With the frustration of the charlatans fresh in our minds, it's mighty hard. Do you believe it's true that many overseas experience more in terms of supernatural healing than we do in Western Society? I would love to see documentaries handling cases of healings (blind eyes, deaf ears, cripples walking, etc). "Lord, help my unbelief!" That's my cry as well on subjects like this. I want to be simple enough to believe, but not simple enough to be duped. "Wise as a serpent, harmless as a dove?"

The false doctrines and awful heresies that spawned from the OR's and Branham's are dangerous and always make me think of what guys like that will say to God. I believe 100% there's were altars of good intentions (even if the intentions were distorted later, and turned into performing), but ours (Pentecostals) is a history of embarrassing events/moments.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

... Do you believe it's true that many overseas experience more in terms of supernatural healing than we do in Western Society? ...

Dunno. Missions reports are often highlighted with reports of healings on a scale that is not seen in North America. Does that mean that there's "more faith" and less "bunk" distracting people? There's almost a benevolent racism at work here - at least from the "Home Front."

The fact that most of these reports could never possibly be verified does lend a certain aura of legend to them. Yet, I've known people whose lifes have been genuinely touched. Something is happening - probably all around us. We just see it through a glass darkly.

The para at nakhoe's church is one reason why I'd hate to be a "wet blanket" about all of this. No one really understands the connection between the mind and the body. Tremendous stories of overcoming adversity are frequent. "Psychosomatic" healings are common. There's a lot that having faith can can do for a person. Those things should not be stymied, but encouraged.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I have a standing offer to meet anyone "with the gift" or who possesses knowledge of how to "activate" such a gift to meet with me outside of a childrens' hospital closest to their home or office.

I dare say, there are few people who authentically want to see these gifts used to the glory of God more than myself.

I agree with your last statement; but shouldn't somebody some where have shown us the way by now?

IHOP's leaders trace their roots through Paul Cain back to the "Healing Revival" of the 1950s under William Branham. For whatever reason (probably a car accident) Branham himself died a slow and agonizingly painful death.

I worked with a man who was once associated with W. Branham. He told of how he and others would wheel gurneys and hospital beds into the Kiel Auditorium in St. Louis and he actually saw some people get up out of those beds. "Some would get up, most wouldn't and we'd have to wheel them back to their ambulances afterward." He said that with evident sorrow on his heart.

I believe God can do "anything!" But the question is, "What is God really doing?"

For the record the Branhamites say that his bones were popping back into place micraculously after the accident, but I cannot recall why they say he died anyway.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Dunno. Missions reports are often highlighted with reports of healings on a scale that is not seen in North America. Does that mean that there's "more faith" and less "bunk" distracting people? There's almost a benevolent racism at work here - at least from the "Home Front."

The fact that most of these reports could never possibly be verified does lend a certain aura of legend to them. Yet, I've known people whose lifes have been genuinely touched. Something is happening - probably all around us. We just see it through a glass darkly.

The para at nakhoe's church is one reason why I'd hate to be a "wet blanket" about all of this. No one really understands the connection between the mind and the body. Tremendous stories of overcoming adversity are frequent. "Psychosomatic" healings are common. There's a lot that having faith can can do for a person. Those things should not be stymied, but encouraged.

Growing up I would think, "Wow! Why doesn't that stuff happen in America?" Now? I think, "Hmmm....wonder if that really happened?" I suppose life has changing my thinking a bit.

I suppose the most significant part of life that has changed my thinking is the bogus, the counterfeit. When I was in bible school, we went through a spell where "Miracles, signs, and wonders" dominated every single day. We would go to chapel and one of the instructors would lengthen student's arms and legs. If you hold out your hands in front of you and put your palms together, you can easily make one arm shorter than the other, repeat the process and have them even. It was ridiculous.

The truth is, for me I've seen dozens of similar incidents, and not one validated obvious "Healing". I hear of it, like the earlier statements in this thread, I've had God do things in my life that could only be attributed to Him, but I'm just being honest when I say that I've never seen a validated, obvious healing.

[Michael The Disciple]

I am favorable to IHOP. It is one of the few Churches left Im aware of that holds my interest. As I have watched it occasionally for the past 4 months I have noticed this:

Mike Bickle considered the leader is rarely there. Many speak evil of him and that hes a "cult leader". I would expect to see his face a lot if he were just trying to magnify himself.

Another thing. Compared to my experience with Pentecostal Churches IHOP is by no means radical in the way they conduct the meetings. Its mostly rather subdued again just speaking from my own experience. I think they are trying hard not to let things get out of hand ala Toronto and Todd Bently.

What I do see is young people who's zeal is not to run around the Church and jump over pews but to fast and pray. To spend time in the word. This is the neatest youth movement I have seen since the Jesus Movement itself in the 70's.

I know what its like to be cynical of fake healing. Thats what overwhelmed the Churches both Pentecostal and Charismatic a long time ago. Yet healing happens. It has happened to me. I have prayed for others at times and seen them healed.

I have my own theory why there is so little of the dramatic healings in scripture and like what were reported in earlier Pentecostal times. It may be just one part but a major thing IMO.

The truth of faith and holiness toward God has become despised. We now have the "finished work" doctrine telling us theres nothing at all we can do to have the favor of God. If we think in terms of doing anything its ridiculed.

No wonder God seems afar off! Look at the scriptures and what Jesus taught and compare it to the teaching in Pentecostal/Charismatic Churches now. We expect to have the same magnitude of power as the Apostles and yet we dont give a thought to there being a price to be paid for such a walk, life, or ministry.

The power in general is not there because there is little consecration to Gods will and no hunger for more that would drive men to more prayer, more love, more obedience.