Timmy, I find your position interesting. A sincere and not argumentative question.
If the is no god and there-by justifies your position, how do you give an account for what is real, how do we know what we know,
If God exists or not, either way: I determine what is real and what I know by observation. Learning from the experience of others, reading, listening, using common sense, etc. Why would it matter whether God exists or not? What is is what is, either way.
Now, I guess you're asking that question from the position that the Bible is truth, that it basically defines truth, and in that sense, it is the last word in "what is real". I've heard it said many times (in different wordings): when experience and faith don't agree, faith is right and experience is wrong. In my mind, that's backwards. If I believe (have faith) that the moon is 5 miles away from the Earth, and I learn at some point that scientists know for a fact that it is over 200,000 miles away, I adjust my belief. Why should spiritual reality be any different?
I said before that I'm leaning toward the existence side, in my agnosticism. I'll even go as far as saying that I do believe in God. (I don't think that's a contradiction, by the way. I believe in God without proof. Hey! I have faith! Maybe there's hope for me after all! ) But I have strong doubts that the Bible is very good at describing Him. It may be close, in some places, but in others, not so good. E.g., the Egyptian plagues, as I've posted before, don't make God look good or loving. He killed babies and children, why? To show that He could, and to make His name known. (Look it up. Those are the reasons given for the plagues.) There are many other problems with the plague story, and with many other Bible stories (and not just the OT).
(Note: my point is not that God is evil. It is that the Bible is wrong, in its depiction of God's actions, at least in many cases. I simply don't believe that God killed those children!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReformedDave
and what is right and wrong?
(I guess you mean morally right and wrong?) The answer here is very similar to the previous one. It comes from observation and learning, from reading and listening. Common sense is part of it, and common agreement among people: rules and laws, common courtesy, etc. And if God does or doesn't exist, it doesn't change that, either: morality is what it is.
The Bible does lay out a decent basis for morality with some of the commandments, but it goes too far. It makes sense to forbid lying, stealing, murder, adultery, etc. But other things don't make sense to forbid: e.g., working on the Sabbath, eating meat offered to idols, homosexuality. Why in the world would these things bother God? Why should they bother anyone? Gay couples, even if they were married, don't stop me from being married to a woman and raising a family! They don't hurt me or you at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReformedDave
Seems to me that at this point your position begins to be one of arbitrariness, skepticism, and inconsistency....at best.
Arbitrariness: In a way, yes. Arbitrary in that, using this approach, different people may arrive at different conclusions. But so what? That's life! We each live our life as we see fit. Yes, some will take that approach and end up living selfishly. But believing the Bible is inspired and infallible is no guarantee that that won't happen, either.
And more (IMO) arbitrariness happens in an inspired-and-infallible-Bible approach. Look at all the arguments just on AFF alone, over this or that detail. 1-step or 3-step? Is this or that a sin? Women in pants! Etc. etc. So even OPs arrive at different conclusions, and have different lists of rules. How does each one decide what to believe? Maybe it's not technically arbitrary: they have some reason for it, but so do I.
Skepticism: Sure! Why not?
Inconsistency: Not sure what you have in mind, here. Maybe you could elaborate? Meanwhile, consider the "consistency" among people who say the Bible is inspired and infallible. OPs have quite a variety of beliefs, themselves. Go beyond to other denominations, and wow! And everyone has scripture to justify their positions.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Notice the timestamp on my post, about midnight? Well, right after work, I had somewhere to go. You're gonna laugh. I went to my regular Thursday night (are you sitting down?) Bible study!
Seriously!
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I'm an oddball. I think of myself as a Christian agnostic. Christian, in the sense that I follow Christ's teachings (most of them as recorded, anyway), though not entirely sure about His deity, the atonement (or the need for it), etc. That's part of the agnostic label I wear. The other part is the typical agnostic idea: I don't think it's possible to prove or disprove God's existence. I lean heavily toward the believing side (and "deist" is a pretty close fit, there), but I also believe that God's true nature is most likely very different from what most people think, or even how He is described in some parts of the Bible.
I started reading this thread and stalled already.
Timmy, if you cannot reject Christ's "deity, the atonement (or the need for it)" and possibly say you believe or follow Christ's teaching.
The teaching of His deity and His willingness to shed His own blood for mankind is THE message of scripture.
I am sorry you find yourself in the place you are in, and I will pray for you.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
I started reading this thread and stalled already.
Timmy, if you cannot reject Christ's "deity, the atonement (or the need for it)" and possibly say you believe or follow Christ's teaching.
The teaching of His deity and His willingness to shed His own blood for mankind is THE message of scripture.
I am sorry you find yourself in the place you are in, and I will pray for you.
Not exactly rejecting it, just fairly doubtful about it. I'm open minded, more than it may seem!
But I know what you mean. It's pretty weird, even to me, to say I'm a Christian, with these beliefs. By some defintions, including the one I lived with for 50 years, I'm not! I used to be a traditional pentecostal believer, a defender of the faith, a born again Christian of the inspired-infallible-Bible variety. But I wanted my beliefs to be in actual truth. Not just theoretical truth. The word "believe" loses a lot of its meaning when you try to believe just because you are told to, and so much of reality contradicts what you're supposed to believe.
Not that you folks don't have reasons for believing what you do. But, for whatever reason, my experience is different from yours. I haven't seen undeniable miracles, that I know of, but lots of fakes and wishful-thinking testimonies. Some in my own family. Some from my own mouth! It doesn't seem healthy to blindly "amen" such things, anymore.
But, no need to feel bad for me. This phase of my spiritual journey has been wonderful! (See the little guy in my sig line? That's me! ) It's very likely that it has saved my life. When things didn't work as the doctrine said they should, it at least contributed to, if not caused, deep depression. Suicide would not have been a big surprise, if it had continued a few more years. But now, depression is virtually gone. The bouts are few and far between, and last mere minutes.
Yes, I know. God hasn't promised there would be no troubles, in this life. But the rhetoric is that God will never fail you. He will always protect His children. Well, how might we know if He did "fail" us? A major disaster? Obviously not. There is no tragedy, it seems, bad enough to let anyone say that God failed them. What would it be like if He didn't "protect" us? Would I have an injury or sickness? No, of course that can't be it. Would my sickness be life threatening? What if I die from an injury? Well, Christians die from sickness and injuries, and nobody's allowed to say, "well, God missed it, that time." In other words, God can't lose! And the explanation that God knows what we need better than we do or that He has something better doesn't wash, anymore.
But now I really do have joy, long promised but rarely delivered by the AG doctrine! How can I have inner peace, when my prayers are almost never answered? And "no" doesn't count as an answer! That's a lame excuse. And my brother getting his healing from cancer in Heaven doesn't cut it! That's the lamest and cruelest excuse of all. Again, with logic like that, God can't lose. But I could say the same about my cat. I could have asked him to heal my brother, and I guess his answer would have been "no" or "he'll be healed in Heaven", too.
I believe that God's main intention for mankind (if He exists, and if He has an "intention" for us) is this: we are to love each other. And not just in word, but in deed. Do things or each other. Help each other: friends, family, strangers. That is one of the teachings of Christ that resonate with me!
Do your spiritual beliefs, the Gospel, OP theology, etc., resonate with you? That's great! Does it make sense to you? Wonderful! Is it really true, in the normal everyday English sense that it reflects reality?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Not exactly rejecting it, just fairly doubtful about it. I'm open minded, more than it may seem!
But I know what you mean. It's pretty weird, even to me, to say I'm a Christian, with these beliefs. By some defintions, including the one I lived with for 50 years, I'm not! I used to be a traditional pentecostal believer, a defender of the faith, a born again Christian of the inspired-infallible-Bible variety. But I wanted my beliefs to be in actual truth. Not just theoretical truth. The word "believe" loses a lot of its meaning when you try to believe just because you are told to, and so much of reality contradicts what you're supposed to believe.
Not that you folks don't have reasons for believing what you do. But, for whatever reason, my experience is different from yours. I haven't seen undeniable miracles, that I know of, but lots of fakes and wishful-thinking testimonies. Some in my own family. Some from my own mouth! It doesn't seem healthy to blindly "amen" such things, anymore.
But, no need to feel bad for me. This phase of my spiritual journey has been wonderful! (See the little guy in my sig line? That's me! ) It's very likely that it has saved my life. When things didn't work as the doctrine said they should, it at least contributed to, if not caused, deep depression. Suicide would not have been a big surprise, if it had continued a few more years. But now, depression is virtually gone. The bouts are few and far between, and last mere minutes.
Yes, I know. God hasn't promised there would be no troubles, in this life. But the rhetoric is that God will never fail you. He will always protect His children. Well, how might we know if He did "fail" us? A major disaster? Obviously not. There is no tragedy, it seems, bad enough to let anyone say that God failed them. What would it be like if He didn't "protect" us? Would I have an injury or sickness? No, of course that can't be it. Would my sickness be life threatening? What if I die from an injury? Well, Christians die from sickness and injuries, and nobody's allowed to say, "well, God missed it, that time." In other words, God can't lose! And the explanation that God knows what we need better than we do or that He has something better doesn't wash, anymore.
But now I really do have joy, long promised but rarely delivered by the AG doctrine! How can I have inner peace, when my prayers are almost never answered? And "no" doesn't count as an answer! That's a lame excuse. And my brother getting his healing from cancer in Heaven doesn't cut it! That's the lamest and cruelest excuse of all. Again, with logic like that, God can't lose. But I could say the same about my cat. I could have asked him to heal my brother, and I guess his answer would have been "no" or "he'll be healed in Heaven", too.
I believe that God's main intention for mankind (if He exists, and if He has an "intention" for us) is this: we are to love each other. And not just in word, but in deed. Do things or each other. Help each other: friends, family, strangers. That is one of the teachings of Christ that resonate with me!
Do your spiritual beliefs, the Gospel, OP theology, etc., resonate with you? That's great! Does it make sense to you? Wonderful! Is it really true, in the normal everyday English sense that it reflects reality?
Brother, I appreciate your open mind, so you won't mind my intrusion here. I've thought about this post and can really relate as to where you are coming from. If you won't mind a personal question:
Your "slide" from "a traditional pentecostal believer, a defender of the faith, a born again Christian of the inspired-infallible-Bible variety", when did this begin? The depression you experienced, was it a result of losing your brother? I apologize for being so personal (especcailly on an open forum), but, I guess I'm just trying to connect the dots. How does a traditional Pentecostal become what he calls an agnostic Christian? I geuss I believe too much in "cause and affect". Something happens to cause something else to happen.
If it is true, as seems to be indicated above, that your change began at the time of the loss of your brother, then I can understand your questions, your doubts about all things spiritual. I can even relate to a certain extent. I've sure had alot of questions here lately myself.
I woke up this morning at about 4:30 thinking of your posts and I thought of the children of Israel. There was a times when they felt abandoned by God. I know, you doubt the validity of the Bible, and thats okay. Just bear with me. They were right smack in the wilderness, hungry, tired and thirsty and they actually longed to return to Egyptian bondage. The price for the Promised Land must have seemed to be too high. How could they, the descendents of Abraham, to be expected to go through what they were going through? In Egypt, they were at least given "3 hots and a cot"- here, in this desolute wilderness all they had was their reliance on a man who "claimed" to get his orders from God. They were being asked to place their faith in a land they weren't even sure existed. After some 40 years of wandering, their doubts and rebellion is almost understandable. Do they turn around and head back to Egypt or do they keep trusting this "Moses, the son of Pharoahs daughter". (How were they to know that Moses, who was raised as an Egyptian wasn't really working covertly with Pharoah to rid the world of these Jews?) But, they had no choice but to trust. To return to Egypt, they'd have to find their way back to bondage and servitude. They'd have to go back through the place where God provided manna from heaven, quails and water from a rock. They'd have to pass through the place where Moses stood between them and God, saying, "If you kill these people, then kill me too". They'd have to pass by Mt. Sinai where the Law was given. Then, they'd have to cross the Red Sea again (which, no doubt) wouldn't part so easily for them this time. Then they'd have to face the King of Egypt who would, without a doubt, kill every last one of them for leaving in the first place.
No turning back wasn't the answer. Complain, murmur, gripe and question, yes. Thats what us mortal beings do. But turn back to face certain anniliation? Thats just not an option.
People of faith are those who, while they may not have all the answers, are people like Joshua who didn't know how they would take the Promised Land, but, they follow anyhow. This "blind allegiance" to a God they had never seen was all they had. Their faith sustained them when nothing else would or could. Read Hebrews 11. Its not "understanding" and "knowledge" that keeps us.... its "blind allegiance". It is faith. 1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
I don't know why your brother wasn't healed of cancer. I don't know why my wife wasn't healed. I don't know why my first wife, who had never hurt anyone in her life, had to be brutally murdered. I don't blame God for their deaths. And, I have to reconcile my thoughts with the faith that there was a reason for their deaths. Thats not enough, but thats all I have. I get angry at times... and I question. And I have doubts. But returning to Egypt is not the answer. To do so, I'd have to pass the places in my life where God has made Himself real to me. One of those places was in my living room just 2 months ago when, just as my wife passed into eternity (or whatever is on "the other side"), God answered two prayers for us.
Brother, I have to rely on these words, Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And, also from Job: Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. Job 13:15 ) I can really relate to Job right now.
I know, hollow words. They seem that way to me right now, too. In fact, to be honest, everything I read and do right now seems hollow and empty. Even writing this. But, "this too shall pass". I don't feel very saved now. I feel a million miles from God. But, thats normal. Its times like this that my faith in a God who never fails, and who never loses, sustains me. I have nothing left to hold to but faith. And neither do you. Complain, murmur and question if you must. But, returning to Egyptian bondage is not the answer.
I know, this is long. But, its theraputic... at least for me. Faith is the substance of the unseen... its the evidence of what we hope for. I hope theres a heaven waiting at the end of this life. I sure hope God knows what He's doing. I sure don't. I guess I'll just have to wait and see.
Hbr 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
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"Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him...." -Psa. 37:7
Waiting for the Lord is easy... Waiting patiently? Not so much.
It was a long, slow process, starting well before my brother's cancer was diagnosed. The depression start even before that. The depression got worse and worse, and Steve's death was a factor in further depression and finally my leaving the AG, but only one of many factors.
More later. Got a big day ahead.
Peace, bro! Love ya.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
) But I have strong doubts that the Bible is very good at describing Him. It may be close, in some places, but in others, not so good. E.g., the Egyptian plagues, as I've posted before, don't make God look good or loving. He killed babies and children, why? To show that He could, and to make His name known. (Look it up. Those are the reasons given for the plagues.) There are many other problems with the plague story, and with many other Bible stories (and not just the OT).
I think of myself as a Christian agnostic. Christian, in the sense that I follow Christ's teachings (most of them as recorded, anyway), though not entirely sure about His deity, the atonement (or the need for it), etc. That's part of the agnostic label I wear. The other part is the typical agnostic idea: I don't think it's possible to prove or disprove God's existence. I lean heavily toward the believing side (and "deist" is a pretty close fit, there), but I also believe that God's true nature is most likely very different from what most people think, or even how He is described in some parts of the Bible.
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