Apology to World

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

An idle observation (from an outsider such as myself) would conclude that pentecostal kids don't get to choose their religion and lifestyle either. This is to answer a critical comment you made about muslims earlier.

Short summary: Life under Sharia law in Saudi would be better than life under "Pentecostal law" anywhere. Yet Muslims pray more, fast more, give more, and follow a much stricter and more conservative lifestyle than any flashy, hair-sprayed pentecostal ever did. Go figure.

None of the points preceeding this have anything to do with lifestyle being better or not. None
Until children age and leave their home, they are not free to choose their lifestyle under any religion.
I will make a strong but equal argument that may be over your head. children do not choose their parents.
Under any culture, children are taught the culture and lifestyle. In some they are taught to were no clothing. They choose to defy the culture or adapt.
As a Muslim you can't compare Muslim culture and lifestuyle with christianity. Christianity involves a Personl verdict regarding ones religion. Muslims are born that way or are forced into the religion. It is not something they are Spirit drawn into like christianity.

Where do you gather data regarding your unsupported assertion about prayer, fasting and giving?
The Prophet Elijah had a short prayer outburst. No bump on the forehead here.

Mohammad did no miracles of healing or delivering people from demons.None. Praying in mechanical prayer rituals must be missing a connection or pleasureing of a real God.

Read the Koran. None.

Seems as if you haven't studied the bible or the Koran. At camp meeting in Alaska 3 weeks ago tonight a man that was blind from a gunshot wound to the head for 10 years recieved restored vision by praise and prayer WITHOUT the laying on of hands. Berfore you say prove it or it can't be proven, i will preempt you and say 1 testimony of a saint cannot be negated by 30 Muslims scholars with their heads bursting with knowledge.

A final issue. God never promised fulfillment or some utopian lifestyle. Using that as benchmarking for a religion is really a waste on your part. He promised eternal life. Don't press some strawman lifestyle as a benchmark for measuring religions. Read the book of Acts of the Apostles and tell me if stephen while being stoned had a nifty "lifestyle"
You watch too much television.

(give more? Most Muslims are dirt poor and a few are rich. recent exceptions are Muslims that were educated in the west and developed western careers). Medicine. we built the hospitals in Saudi arabia, trained the techs and docs and were paid in petrol dollars that came from America to begin with. Arabia's oil was produced by Aramco which the arabs stole from the western oil countries. In other words, we developed the oil produced it gave the company to the Saudies, buy oil from it and build hospitals and massive buildings all traceable to Us and an uncivilized region we developed after israel was formed.
700 billion GDP for saudi and it is almost totally oil. why no assorted industries? Israel has a lot of industry.
I could go on and on. The Persian gulf is a total flop except for oil and the west developing the region.
Halliburton. If all the products and services rendered by Halliburtion ended today, the middle east would be deistated tomorrow. My family missionaries have served the Muslims since the 50's. We have had properties siezed and a lot of other nasty stunts. I have relatives buried in Muslim lands serving the Lord. Actually i was going on the web to look at a web site for a newly started church in the states by an uncle that worships in Arabic. The Lord God Jehovah is winning souls to Jesus.
Summary. Mohammad had no miracles. He had no gods on which to call that could deliver. Check it out in the Quran. Without force, ya'll have nothin'.

Your religion supresses women and we can't even teach them bible studies except for the authority and approval of their owner. Don't worry about the hairspray.

Miracles signs and wonders. Yahweh is alive!!!! The Holy ONE of Israel.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Now: Let's say Pentecostals ran the world -

Women would be covered in dresses, as they are in Saudi

Women would not be allowed to wear jewelry or makeup. Those are sinful, right? They are allowed to do so in Saudi

There would be separate pools and separate facilities for men and women, as there are in Saudi. "Mixed bathing" etc is sinful right?

There would be no secular music like there is in Saudi. Secular music is sinful right?

There would be segregated churches. After all "state laws" made that easy right? There are no segregated mosques anywhere in the world

There would be no television like there is in Saudi. Television is sinful right?

An idle observation (from an outsider such as myself) would conclude that pentecostal kids don't get to choose their religion and lifestyle either. This is to answer a critical comment you made about muslims earlier.

Short summary: Life under Sharia law in Saudi would be better than life under "Pentecostal law" anywhere. Yet Muslims pray more, fast more, give more, and follow a much stricter and more conservative lifestyle than any flashy, hair-sprayed pentecostal ever did. Go figure.

Wii-

1. Pentecostals aren't seeking to legislate Pentecostal norms on the general public. Conversion is a matter of the heart not law.

2. Make-up, TV, and secular music, etc. are not strictly prohibited by all Pentecostals. Pentecostals make up many kinds of people. They are free to find a Church that fits their beliefs rather than being forced by law to fit the beliefs of particular leader.

3. Please let me know what the critical comment originally was so I can decide if I accept your answer to it.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

4 million is still 3,980,000 less than all worldwide american deaths by terrorism (including casualties in the "war on terror") since 1967 when the statistics started being tabulated. Nice call with the numbers- I just grabbed a random article which extrapolated "victims" and played with statistics. Who cares? The numbers are SO skewed that no matter which number you use - MADD reports around 14,000 annual, or various other sources which range from 8,000-20,000 it's still worse. All it means is: hmmmmm....Do I have to use (1) year or (2) years to equal total (american) deaths by terrorism tabulated back for (42) years. How much time do you think it is worth spending to calculate 1.225, or is it 1.680, or 1.855 years of drunk driving deaths to pass up terrorism deaths? Now, instead of picking apart my statistics (the point stands, but one can always find someone else's details to pre-empt the details in front of them) do you have something, anything, from anywhere, of your own, with some real numbers, that can tell me or tell anyone who reads this that you are safer from "random acts of violence" in the US than anywhere else in the world? Anything will do (laughing). I'll just sit here and wait for you to find and post the numbers.

Wii- I don't have the time or interest in researching the numbers. It is obvious that you play fast and loose with the facts when you "play" with the numbers and statistics.

You admit that the "4 million drunk driving victims" that you initially threw out here is estimated based on being victimized (anything from being victimized because someone lost someone they loved to perhaps just having been in a fender bender as a result of drunk driving). But then you compare this inflated number to American deaths by terrorism without recognizing the huge ripple of victimization that also occurs by any death by terrorism.

Just one example is that all society has lost the ability to fly without being interrogated, handled, looked at with great suspicion, strip-searched, etc. because of terrorism by Islamic fanatics spawned by Jihad motivation. HOW BIG then is the number of people victimized by Islamic terrorism?

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

4 million is still 3,980,000 less than all worldwide american deaths by terrorism (including casualties in the "war on terror") since 1967 when the statistics started being tabulated. Nice call with the numbers- I just grabbed a random article which extrapolated "victims" and played with statistics. Who cares? The numbers are SO skewed that no matter which number you use - MADD reports around 14,000 annual, or various other sources which range from 8,000-20,000 it's still worse. All it means is: hmmmmm....Do I have to use (1) year or (2) years to equal total (american) deaths by terrorism tabulated back for (42) years. How much time do you think it is worth spending to calculate 1.225, or is it 1.680, or 1.855 years of drunk driving deaths to pass up terrorism deaths? Now, instead of picking apart my statistics (the point stands, but one can always find someone else's details to pre-empt the details in front of them) do you have something, anything, from anywhere, of your own, with some real numbers, that can tell me or tell anyone who reads this that you are safer from "random acts of violence" in the US than anywhere else in the world? Anything will do (laughing). I'll just sit here and wait for you to find and post the numbers.

I'll give you a little perspective. We drive cars we invented and built. The middle east was on camels until recently. we had zero alcohol driving auto accidents before autos. We have never had a camel mauling reported. Arab countries have lacked the brains and drive to create cars. We have splendid engineers in America from Arab countries working under supervision get education.

1.3 billion Muslims lliving in the past. My classmate, neighbor, coworker roomate and brother in Christ became EVP Research for IBM. Without brains, America wouldn't have been blessed in turning your sand into semiconductors and chips. His aunt died a few months ago. she lived her life as a Missionary to the Muslims.
What in the world have you done for us? Bombed us? Arabs drool over western education. Our medicine.
Little Israel builds modern aircraft. Just a small country.
Where are the anti zionist plane and car factories?
Do you know what it costs for a rich Muslim to drag 200 wives and body guards to visit the Cleveland Clinic for top healthcare? Of course the Cleveland Clinic has been commisioned to build a hospital in Dubai. Save on travel. Love those dollar$ from America.

Alcohol is bad I agree with you. Never had auto/alcohol deaths until we invented cars.

Religious maniacs killed on foot.

MECCA, Saudi Arabia (AP) — Officials on Friday raised the death toll in a stampede by Muslim pilgrims to 363, and the Saudi Interior Ministry defended its response, saying security forces were alerted to the problem immediately.

Muslims false religion. They "stone" their demons and kill each other.

Pilgrims pelt the pillars with stones in a symbolic purging of their sins.

Summary.
1 Auto accidents more deadly than camel accidents
2 alcohol consumption causes judgement errors
3 Hajj cause greater judgement errors without alcohol (compare 600,000 crazy Muslims in Hajj with 600,000 even crazier Harley drivers at Sturgis. (many drinkers)
4 American Motor cycle drivers have better safety records than camel riders.

[Walks_in_islam]

coadie the tractor man. Do not lose your cool

Originally Posted by coadie

None of the points preceeding this have anything to do with lifestyle being better or not. None

I beg to differ my friend. The lifestyles are somewhat comparable with the little things that do not matter nor are in the Bible the most dear to those of the Pentecostal faith.

Until children age and leave their home, they are not free to choose their lifestyle under any religion.

I believe I made that point?

I will make a strong but equal argument that may be over your head. children do not choose their parents.

Under any culture, children are taught the culture and lifestyle. In some they are taught to were no clothing. They choose to defy the culture or adapt.
As a Muslim you can't compare Muslim culture and lifestuyle with christianity. Christianity involves a Personl verdict regarding ones religion. Muslims are born that way or are forced into the religion. It is not something they are Spirit drawn into like christianity.

I can compare and would also suggest that pentecostal children, chosen randomly for example, are "born" into their faith. As you say, they are not free to choose their lifestyle under any religion and the lifestyle they are not free to choose has parallels with the islamic lifestyle. Except for those things as stated above that do not matter..

Where do you gather data regarding your unsupported assertion about prayer, fasting and giving?

Personal observation. I have a wealth of that. You want some?

The Prophet Elijah had a short prayer outburst. No bump on the forehead here.

Mohammad did no miracles of healing or delivering people from demons.None. Praying in mechanical prayer rituals must be missing a connection or pleasureing of a real God.

Read the Koran. None.

Seems as if you haven't studied the bible or the Koran. At camp meeting in Alaska 3 weeks ago tonight a man that was blind from a gunshot wound to the head for 10 years recieved restored vision by praise and prayer WITHOUT the laying on of hands. Berfore you say prove it or it can't be proven, i will preempt you and say 1 testimony of a saint cannot be negated by 30 Muslims scholars with their heads bursting with knowledge.

I have studied both. While you have not. I have no comment on your "camp meeting healing" which leaves your "pre-empt" a bit empty.

A final issue. God never promised fulfillment or some utopian lifestyle. Using that as benchmarking for a religion is really a waste on your part. He promised eternal life. Don't press some strawman lifestyle as a benchmark for measuring religions. Read the book of Acts of the Apostles and tell me if stephen while being stoned had a nifty "lifestyle"
You watch too much television.

(give more? Most Muslims are dirt poor and a few are rich. recent exceptions are Muslims that were educated in the west and developed western careers). Medicine. we built the hospitals in Saudi arabia, trained the techs and docs and were paid in petrol dollars that came from America to begin with.

WE? Who is this we that you are speaking of? You are from Alaska? This WE of yours is ME as I have been there and done that and it is BP, not "WE" who runs your fields and pipelines for you anyway. Whatever WE is YOU are certainly no part of it. lol. WE would be ME.

Arabia's oil was produced by Aramco which the arabs stole from the western oil countries. In other words, we developed the oil produced it gave the company to the Saudies, buy oil from it and build hospitals and massive buildings all traceable to Us and an uncivilized region we developed after israel was formed.

You - cannot develop your own oil. See above comments on BP. lol. Now, ME? I can and have. So who are you talking to and about what anyway?

700 billion GDP for saudi and it is almost totally oil. why no assorted industries? Israel has a lot of industry.
I could go on and on. The Persian gulf is a total flop except for oil and the west developing the region.

Hm funny I was in Dubai a bit ago and saw no oil but much development and business. Same in Bahrain. Perhaps you would re-think your position on this? OHHHHHHH......Aren't you the guy who posted the article that mideast banking growth had "slowed to 12% growth" as an example of how the Islamic banking system was so inferior to the West? lol You ARE that guy. I remember your spelling!

Halliburton. If all the products and services rendered by Halliburtion ended today, the middle east would be deistated tomorrow. My family missionaries have served the Muslims since the 50's. We have had properties siezed and a lot of other nasty stunts. I have relatives buried in Muslim lands serving the Lord. Actually i was going on the web to look at a web site for a newly started church in the states by an uncle that worships in Arabic. The Lord God Jehovah is winning souls to Jesus.

There is no haliburton here and you can bank that one. I am...well sort of in the middle of it and know this.

Summary. Mohammad had no miracles. He had no gods on which to call that could deliver. Check it out in the Quran. Without force, ya'll have nothin'.

Your religion supresses women and we can't even teach them bible studies except for the authority and approval of their owner. Don't worry about the hairspray.

Miracles signs and wonders. Yahweh is alive!!!! The Holy ONE of Israel.

You are babbling...tongues maybe? lol

[Walks_in_islam]

You are in no position to give me perspective but I will give you an idle answer

Originally Posted by coadie

I'll give you a little perspective. We drive cars we invented and built.

You and I have already had that discussion. Do you need another public science and engineering lesson from me? However, as stated in earlier post, YOU have neither invented nor built anything in your life. Which makes you underqualified to speak for those who have and do.

The middle east was on camels until recently. we had zero alcohol driving auto accidents before autos. We have never had a camel mauling reported. Arab countries have lacked the brains and drive to create cars. We have splendid engineers in America from Arab countries working under supervision get education.

1.3 billion Muslims lliving in the past. My classmate, neighbor, coworker roomate and brother in Christ became EVP Research for IBM. Without brains, America wouldn't have been blessed in turning your sand into semiconductors and chips. His aunt died a few months ago. she lived her life as a Missionary to the Muslims.

First of all, it is not MY sand nor have I seen a real camel. But - I saw some races on TV from Bahrain...OH I forgot TV is evil. Or maybe pentecostals want to control what their congregation sees, hears, and reads because they cannot be trusted to think for themselves?

What in the world have you done for us? Bombed us?

No, but You have certainly bombed 10's of thousands of Muslims, most of who have done nothing at all to earn or deserve it

Arabs drool over western education. Our medicine.
Little Israel builds modern aircraft. Just a small country.

Little Isreal is driving F14's, F15's, F16's, and F18s or haven't you heard? The Uzi was a great invention though. I used to have one alas.....<sigh> what a fun toy. the 80's were great!

Where are the anti zionist plane and car factories? Do you know what it costs for a rich Muslim to drag 200 wives and body guards to visit the Cleveland Clinic for top healthcare? Of course the Cleveland Clinic has been commisioned to build a hospital in Dubai. Save on travel. Love those dollar$ from America.

Alcohol is bad I agree with you. Never had auto/alcohol deaths until we invented cars.

What is your fascination with cars anyway? Inventing them is one thing. I believe in an earlier discussion between you and I we concluded that though invented there in the states they can't make the cars actually run long enough to justify their expense hence the bankrupt car industry. I do not believe that cars has anything to do with either religion or politics. It's business and US mfgs kind of, well, at it

Religious maniacs killed on foot.

MECCA, Saudi Arabia (AP) — Officials on Friday raised the death toll in a stampede by Muslim pilgrims to 363, and the Saudi Interior Ministry defended its response, saying security forces were alerted to the problem immediately.

Muslims false religion. They "stone" their demons and kill each other.

Summary.
1 Auto accidents more deadly than camel accidents
2 alcohol consumption causes judgement errors
3 Hajj cause greater judgement errors without alcohol (compare 600,000 crazy Muslims in Hajj with 600,000 even crazier Harley drivers at Sturgis. (many drinkers)

See THAT is funny! lol

4 American Motor cycle drivers have better safety records than camel riders.

Summary:

Saudi has oil. Alaska also has oil. There is more petrochemical, specialty chemical, and construction industry in the city of Jubail, Saudi Arabia than all of Alaska combined

Jubail, Saudi Arabia has no refining industry. The neighboring town of Ras Tanura, Saudi Arabia has more refining capacity than all of Alaska combined

Alaska has oil but British Petroleum manages the fields and pipelines for Alaska. Alaskans are too lazy to do the work for themselves but can always find the boundless energy for every man, woman, and child there to line up for the annual "oil revenue check" from the alaskan government that the alaskan's "earned" by not doing any actual work themselves. See above comments on BP and after all they imported me to do their work for them lol...

There are more restaurants in the small town of Rahima, Saudi Arabia than there are in the entire town of Fairbanks which is Alaska's (2nd) largest city. Personal experience has made me conclude that fairbanks is a bit of a dump surpassed only by it's cousin North Pole which is 10 miles to the south

There is more industry and business in the town of Dhahran, Saudi Arabia than there is in the combined cities of Fairbanks, Anchorage, and Juneau, Ak

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

You are in no position to give me perspective but I will give you an idle answer


Summary:

Saudi has oil. Alaska also has oil. There is more petrochemical, specialty chemical, and construction industry in the city of Jubail, Saudi Arabia than all of Alaska combined

Jubail, Saudi Arabia has no refining industry. The neighboring town of Ras Tanura, Saudi Arabia has more refining capacity than all of Alaska combined

Alaska has oil but British Petroleum manages the fields and pipelines for Alaska. Alaskans are too lazy to do the work for themselves but can always find the boundless energy for every man, woman, and child there to line up for the annual "oil revenue check" from the alaskan government that the alaskan's "earned" by not doing any actual work themselves. See above comments on BP and after all they imported me to do their work for them lol...

There are more restaurants in the small town of Rahima, Saudi Arabia than there are in the entire town of Fairbanks which is Alaska's (2nd) largest city. Personal experience has made me conclude that fairbanks is a bit of a dump surpassed only by it's cousin North Pole which is 10 miles to the south

There is more industry and business in the town of Dhahran, Saudi Arabia than there is in the combined cities of Fairbanks, Anchorage, and Juneau, Ak

Looks like you don't know the Alaskan oil business.
Crude is piped out of Alaska and refined elswhere. I only rememer 3-4 smaller refineries up there. America doesn't use the Arabs to refine for us.
what do restaurants and their numbers have to do with anything? My neighbor started a chain which grew to over 5,000 restaurants.
Just a little history. Atlantic richfield was acquired by BP and BP also bought aMOCO AND SOHIO. SOHIO WAS ALSO LARGE ON THE NORTH SLOPE. williams sold their little refinery to Koch and on it goes.
I see your leaders. They drag their 200 wives that look like prostitutes to cleveland when the Big guy needs surgery.The cleveland clinic is tops.
and a body guard to keep them from running and to pay for their shopping. Typical Muslim. Kinda like Arfat traveled with his young boys for relief. I knew about arafat dying from aisds a year before your locals knew he had it. Lived like Mohammad.
America thanks the persian gulf. Fluor, danielveco C3M Bown Root do the design and build of the refineries.
For Saudies 744 billion in GDP, they sure are dependent on america for most construction and engineering. God is blessing us.

How are you all coming with cars? My german relatives build some dandies.
I ownly see mercedes when I visit the Gulf. No saudiSuv's?

Just a little lesson on pipelines. We have crude lines. We refine but not at the oilfields. It takes a bit to switch products in refined products pipelines.
Exxon is one of the larger Aerican Oil companies. They own as little as a few percent to as much as 100% of many companies in the middle east.

$477,359.000,000.00 2008 revenues

546 billion GDP Saudi Arabia 2007

So arabs get a little oil, they brag liike texans.

So Saudi Arabia is a little larger than our largest oil company. Smaller than Walmart.

So when crude goes to 35 dollars, Saudi starts choking. Send some of your youth to America and we can teach them other professions.
My sons when they were young, manufactured their own computers. Israel is into technology. For some reason, Technology careers are a generation away for the middle east. With all that sand, silicon wafer factories would make sense.

Any comment on the rest of my post regarding some unexplained abscense of miracles by Mohammad PBUH in the Quran or in the faith?

We pray and see miracles. Why pray and miss out on miracles? Who do they pray to?

4 اسْمَعُوا يَابَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ: الرَّبُّ إِلَهُنَا رَبٌّ وَاحِدٌ،

[Walks_in_islam]

<yawn> your reply

Originally Posted by coadie

Looks like you don't know the Alaskan oil business.

I guess I do know the Alaskan oil business jack. Can you even spell BP?I bet you can spell "income fund" lol

Crude is piped out of Alaska and refined elswhere.

Yeah. By BP. Then refined elsewhere. Mostly by non-American refiners

I only rememer 3-4 smaller refineries up there. America doesn't use the Arabs to refine for us.

Don't they? Of course they do. They also use PDVSA (uncle Chavez? Venezuela?) as well as other foreign companies to refine oil for them. Oil that they buy from here. So, you neither produce nor refine your own oil. So who is this WE you speak of then? lol...again, WE is ME and you are part of none of it.

what do restaurants and their numbers have to do with anything? My neighbor started a chain which grew to over 5,000 restaurants.

Your neighbor. Your aunt. Your stories. lol

Just a little history. Atlantic richfield was acquired by BP and BP also bought aMOCO AND SOHIO. SOHIO WAS ALSO LARGE ON THE NORTH SLOPE. williams sold their little refinery to Koch and on it goes.

I need no history on the oil business. Just saving you time.

I see your leaders.

Yeah. They are in Washington lol

They drag their 200 wives that look like prostitutes to cleveland when the Big guy needs surgery.The cleveland clinic is tops.

You are obsessed with the cleveland clinic. Cleveland is a crime-riddled dump. May I ask that you obsess with a nicer location? Perhaps warmer?

and a body guard to keep them from running and to pay for their shopping. Typical Muslim. Kinda like Arfat traveled with his young boys for relief. I knew about arafat dying from aisds a year before your locals knew he had it. Lived like Mohammad.

Well you certainly know more about aids and young boys than I do. Thanks for the update.

America thanks the persian gulf. Fluor, danielveco C3M Bown Root do the design and build of the refineries.

Don't forget citibank lol

Sadly the latest upgrades are being designed in Korea. Like american cars, lazy american engineering firms have priced themselves out of the market.

For Saudies 744 billion in GDP, they sure are dependent on america for most construction and engineering. God is blessing us.

See above on latest projects. But you knew that right?

How are you all coming with cars? My german relatives build some dandies.
I ownly see mercedes when I visit the Gulf. No saudiSuv's?

I dunno. We had this car discussion. Last one I bought was a toyota. Like your lazy engineering firms and lazy alaskans your lazy union carmakers have priced themselves out of the market. Along with their marginal products.

Just a little lesson on pipelines. We have crude lines. We refine but not at the oilfields.

I know. I worked in 7 refineries in the US. Only (2) of the (7) were american-owned.

It takes a bit to switch products in refined products pipelines.

Why don't you stun your listening audience and describe precisely the bit that it takes?

Exxon is one of the larger Aerican Oil companies.

I know. Shame they dont' pay what the saudis pay though. I would prolly consider working for them lol

They own as little as a few percent to as much as 100% of many companies in the middle east.

Not mine.

$477,359.000,000.00 2008 revenues

546 billion GDP Saudi Arabia 2007

So arabs get a little oil, they brag liike texans.

So Saudi Arabia is a little larger than our largest oil company. Smaller than Walmart.

Did I mention that they pay well though?

So when crude goes to 35 dollars, Saudi starts choking. Send some of your youth to America and we can teach them other professions.

Why send them there when we can teach them here? lol

My sons when they were young, manufactured their own computers.

You're kidding? Manufactured their own? (laughing) You must be proud!

Israel is into technology. For some reason, Technology careers are a generation away for the middle east. With all that sand, silicon wafer factories would make sense.

Um there is no relationship between availability of sand and silicon wafers

Any comment on the rest of my post regarding some unexplained abscense of miracles by Mohammad PBUH in the Quran or in the faith?

Only one idle comment. I saw a pentecostal "healing service" one time. After the guy who was conducting the "healing service" whipped everyone into shape, he then started picking people out of the crowd, going down there, and shoving them while exclaiming "god just gave you a complete BLOOD TRANSFUSION and has HEEEELED you" while everyone clapped and danced. Well, they finally found a guy who really needed help and wheeled him down to the front in his wheelchair. Everyone was whipped into a frenzy. They convinced this guy that he could just stand up and walk right? So, he tried to stand up, and they helped him a little, then let go of him. Faith huh? Well, he couldnt keep his feet but he tried to. He finally fell to the floor and they let him fall. While he was falling the poor guy urinated in his pants and all over the floor. They helped him up then wheeled him out. That's the power of a pentecostal healing prayer service as witnessed by yours truly. Of course there was never any follow-up on the "blood transfusions" either.

God doesn't owe us a thing. God also certainly does not owe us miracles. We owe him time, resources, and our devotion. Our reward comes later. Sometimes unexpected things just happen and when they do they happen by his will. They happen across the spectrum as He wills. Any person taking credit for things that God does or implying that anything a person does somehow "results in" miracles is to me the worst form of sin.

We pray and see miracles. Why pray and miss out on miracles? Who do they pray to?

See above on miracles.

[coadie]

4 اسْمَعُوا يَابَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ: الرَّبُّ إِلَهُنَا رَبٌّ وَاحِدٌ،

[Walks_in_islam]

There are many other references to One God in the Quran my friend. As there are in the Bible

Originally Posted by coadie

4 اسْمَعُوا يَابَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ: الرَّبُّ إِلَهُنَا رَبٌّ وَاحِدٌ،