Obey Them that Rule???

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by ILG

I would have loved John. And I'm not opposed to strong words either. Just so that they are used right.

John is my favorite Apostle.

He also wanted to call down fire from heaven on the Samaritans. Jesus called him a son of thunder.

Read his epistles. Some of the strongest wording in the New Testament is found in them.

[CC1]

I hate it when I see an interesting thread and it already has several hundred posts on it so I will have to find time to catch up.

I will do that but without having read anything but the first page of posts here is an observation.

Not long ago I was speaking with the daughter of a famous big time UPC preacher who is now a pastors wife herself. She told me that times have changed and one can no longer pastor like her father did years ago where you just tell people what to do and they do it.

She has a point. While it may mean harder work for pastors there is some good in this. Going back to the subject of does the end justify the means.

When people just took everything the pastor said as the Gospel without questioning any of it, and when people allowed pastors to dictate every little aspect of their lives without question, there may have been less "problems" and things looked more homogenized BUT it still was not right.

The down side of people being more educated and knowledgable about the Bible, etc is that healthy questioning and examination of a preachers words can turn quickly into micro management by saints (the reverse of the old days when the pastor did it).

Suddenly if a pastor says the least little thing a saint disagrees with they think they should leave or create a big fuss. I believe the actual term for people who do this is "Cooperite". (just kidding Coop) That is just as bad as a pastor who lords over the saints.

There is a legitimate examination of a preachers ministry though that is the obligation of every saint and if that ministry goes beyond the word of God and the precepts and concepts laid down for Christianity it is the saints obligation (especially the men as the Priest of the household) to place themselves under someone preaching and practicing truth.

Originally Posted by Michlow

My first reaction is that I am VERY MUCH a rebel by nature, and I am sure that will shock no one reading this.

Now we're getting to the root of the problem.

My Mom and I were discussing last night the whole trust issue, especially in how it relates to God, and I started thinking, no wonder I can't trust anyone. Every example that I have had of authority has been bad. Especially male authority.

Ah, an area where you need to experience some healing and do some forgiving.

It goes back to what MOW was saying earlier. As soon as I see Male + Authority, my shackles come up immediately. Because I know that those two things together mean cruelty, manipulation, dictatorship, abuse, injustice, etc.

No, you really don't know that those two things together mean cruelty, etc., you make this assumption based on your past experiences. Since these experiences are really emotional in nature and, thus, have to do with the heart, you really can't rely on them because Jeremiah tells us the heart (the seat of emotions) is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. You're allowing yourself to be ruled by your emotions.

It's a little hard to just "get over it" like Coonskinner suggested. It's not like oh no, I had a bad experience, it's that I have never had a good experience. First in the world, and then in the church.

Healing the underlying hurt may take some time but that healing isn't going to start until you forgive the past and the people in your past with whom you associate the hurt (and, of course, forgive means to forgive the way Christ forgave you - go study what the Bible says about how He forgave and follow that example).

[COOPER]

Quote:
Originally Posted by COOPER
Come on now....Let me post something Neg. about leadership and you let the Coon dogs out!
Coon: quoted
Purely a matter of principle, Coop.

Positives and negatives are a fact of life.

A negative truth or quality of a Pastor is not dis-respect to all Leadership.

I remember you saying;

You need Abrasive, harsh, tuff love Elders to lead your life.

For me Abrasive and harsh men are more offensive than helpful.

You may speak it positive...for me it's a negative.
__________________

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by ForeverBlessed

Good post CS.. you are right.

I was the other way around, I have great trust issues with women. On the other hand, had the most loving father anyone could ever ask for. Never been hurt by a man other than my husband and still realized it was drugs...not the core of him.

I understand it is why I am able to submit to male authority and so thankful that for me it was the other way around. I do have difficulty with anyone being demanding, regardless of sex.

Still.. God continues to heal my problems with women in authority and it is something I'm working on.

I now have a female boss... who replaced a male who I have respect for. I am actually surprised at how well it is going. However, the few days were a little rough on me and I spent time praying about my situation.. trying to overcome issues that cause it in the first place.. it may seem insignificant to others... but if they only knew how I bristle at a domineering, head strong woman... they would understand. I have little tolerance for it. I know it is just a work situation...but I spend 8-10 hours a day here.

So, I understand what Mich has said... but totally agree with you. We have to conquer those trust issues.

Good post Lisa!

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

John is my favorite Apostle.

He also wanted to call down fire from heaven on the Samaritans. Jesus called him a son of thunder.

Read his epistles. Some of the strongest wording in the New Testament is found in them.

Wow, CS, I've never read his epistles before. Guess I better get started!!

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by ILG

Wow, CS, I've never read his epistles before. Guess I better get started!!

It just strikes me as odd that you come out against stating things strongly, and then cite the most abrasive of all the apostles as your favorite.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

It just strikes me as odd that you come out against stating things strongly, and then cite the most abrasive of all the apostles as your favorite.

That's because I never came out against stating things strongly on every occasion.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by ILG

That's because I never came out against stating things strongly on every occasion.

You only don't like it sometimes.

You might notice that I don't always do it myself.

There are times I come across very low key.

But there are some topics, some people, and some spirits that merit strong language and wording.

[Felicity]

Being bit of a rebel doesn't have to be a bad thing.

I know a man who was always the one not afraid to break a rule here and there. He was a great guy, loved God, and has the calling and anointing of God on his life, but he was always one to dare to be different and he would break a rule - wasn't afraid to do it. But he did not have a spirit or attitude of rebellion in its negative context. This man went to Bible School and ended up as a career missionary to Eastern Europe at a time when you could be killed for being involved with preaching and teaching the Gospel..

• He dared to cross borders with his car stuffed to the gill with Bibles.
  
  
• He dared to meet with believers where the rules said you can't.
  
  
• He dared to take the Gospel into areas where you could be imprisoned or shot for doing so.
  
  
• He dared to be what God called Him to be and do what God called Him to do and in so doing he dared to break rules of man.

I personally like someone who has the backbone to not be a carbon copy of everyone else so being a rebel in its "positive" context is not necessarily a bad thing at all.

But to be rebellious, headstrong and stubborn as a result of self will and resisting the will of God is NOT a good thing!