Obey Them that Rule???

[Actaeon]

Submit:

G5226
ὑπείκω
hupeikō
hoop-i'-ko
From G5259 and εἴκω eikō (to yield, be “weak”); to surrender: - submit self.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Chan

I disagree with your interpretation. I think it's telling us to obey those whom God has placed over us, and telling us not to be a source of grief to those whom God has placed over us. There is nothing in that passage about us needing to have "confidence and trust" in those leaders. Your interpretation is a typicially American (self-centered, "I'm sovereign over my own life") one. We really need to avoid trying to interpret scripture through the eyes of a wicked worldly culture and interpret scripture through the eyes of OUR culture (the kingdom of Heaven, not America, Canada or some other earthly nation).

You seem to be saying essentially the same thing, though, Chan. You're saying unless you believe (e.g., have confidence) that a man is the man of God, or the elders are the ones God put in your life, that you should find another set of leaders...right? Unless you believe, or have confidence, that they are the ones God has ordained to lead you, then you won't follow. Am I misunderstanding you?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by ILG

For the question in mind, I would like to bring it a little closer to home. Because you no doubt believe yourself to not attend a church that either teaches false doctrine or is a cult. I was referring to a church that you attended. I am not trying to pick on your pastor or your situation personally, but to just put out a hypothetical situation for debate and as food for thought as to what a person might do in this type of situation.

Alright then. Barring false doctrines and cultish natures, and assuming it is the church I attend? Then, no, I would not give advice contrary to that of my pastor. I would either refer the person back to the pastor, refer them to prayer, speak to the pastor myself, privately, about my concerns (without the other person's knowledge, so as not to give the illusion of a less-than-united front), or maybe all three.

I'm not the pastor. I don't say or do things contrary the pastor, or anything that is involved in his leadership of the church, including what counsel he gives to folks. That is not my place, and I revert back to my original statement--it's divisive. The only way it would avoid the "divisive" label would be for me to direct my concerns directly to the pastor---never undermine him by speaking against him or his advice behind his back or without his knowledge.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Alright then. Barring false doctrines and cultish natures, and assuming it is the church I attend? Then, no, I would not give advice contrary to that of my pastor. I would either refer the person back to the pastor, refer them to prayer, speak to the pastor myself, privately, about my concerns (without the other person's knowledge, so as not to give the illusion of a less-than-united front), or maybe all three.

I'm not the pastor. I don't say or do things contrary the pastor, or anything that is involved in his leadership of the church, including what counsel he gives to folks. That is not my place, and I revert back to my original statement--it's divisive. The only way it would avoid the "divisive" label would be for me to direct my concerns directly to the pastor---never undermine him by speaking against him or his advice behind his back or without his knowledge.

This is the attitude that we ought to have.

Very, very good post.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Blubayou

Mich- I printed the article out, as I do not read lengthy stuff on the computer screen well. It is not a subject I have studied much, because I am not a "rebel" by nature. That being said, I did come to a point in my walk that I had to search out what I believed for myself and determine what were my convictions, and what the Bible said as far as essentials. This was not a one time event, it is something that I revisit frequently for evaluation purposes. (Outwardly, I conform to what the " church" teaches most of the time, but I do not necessarily believe they are all necessary for salvation.) My first pastor was very autocratic in his ministering style, and even though I was not a "rebel" by nature, I did not want to be a puppet in my walk with God. I don't know if these rambling make sense,just thought I would add it to the conversation.

My first reaction is that I am VERY MUCH a rebel by nature, and I am sure that will shock no one reading this. My Mom and I were discussing last night the whole trust issue, especially in how it relates to God, and I started thinking, no wonder I can't trust anyone. Every example that I have had of authority has been bad. Especially male authority.

It goes back to what MOW was saying earlier. As soon as I see Male + Authority, my shackles come up immediately. Because I know that those two things together mean cruelty, manipulation, dictatorship, abuse, injustice, etc.

It's a little hard to just "get over it" like Coonskinner suggested. It's not like oh no, I had a bad experience, it's that I have never had a good experience. First in the world, and then in the church.

[Actaeon]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

This is the attitude that we ought to have.

Very, very good post.

Indeed!

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Michlow

My first reaction is that I am VERY MUCH a rebel by nature, and I am sure that will shock no one reading this. My Mom and I were discussing last night the whole trust issue, especially in how it relates to God, and I started thinking, no wonder I can't trust anyone. Every example that I have had of authority has been bad. Especially male authority.

It goes back to what MOW was saying earlier. As soon as I see Male + Authority, my shackles come up immediately. Because I know that those two things together mean cruelty, manipulation, dictatorship, abuse, injustice, etc.

It's a little hard to just "get over it" like Coonskinner suggested. It's not like oh no, I had a bad experience, it's that I have never had a good experience. First in the world, and then in the church.

Mich,

I do not and did not intend to sound calloused or casual or to diminish your pain or bad experiences.

But the fact is that there is no way around it--we have to get over it.

I have had a series of bad experiences with authority figures, male ones, that would curl your hair.

I am not speaking of something I have not lived.

I have fought through long night vigils, wrestling in prayer against the beast of bitterness.

In fact, in a very recent example, my last pastor fell into moral sin and went charismatic. I would have laid down my life for him. I love him. I felt as if I would never be able to trust again.

Just a few months ago, the Lord spoke to me about the man He wanted to be my pastor. I was literally physically sick at the thought of speaking to him about it. He had given me no reason not to trust him, but because of my bad experiences, I was in a cold sweat of dread.

In fact, I humbled myself and swallowed my pride, and called his wife and confessed my fears. I could more easily trust her, you see, because she is a lady, and I have always been blessed by good women in my life. My Granny raised me, and I learned to trust women more than men.

She reassured me, and promised to pray for me, but it was still three more months before I had the conversation, and even then, it was divinely orchestrated.

So believe me, I know what it is to have trust issues.

But you still have to conquer them, regardless of how difficult or insurmountable it may seem.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Mich,

I do not and did not intend to sound calloused or casual or to diminish your pain or bad experiences.

But the fact is that there is no way around it--we have to get over it.

I have had a series of bad experiences with authority figures, male ones, that would curl your hair.

I am not speaking of something I have not lived.

I have fought through long night vigils, wrestling in prayer against the beast of bitterness.

In fact, in a very recent example, my last pastor fell into moral sin and went charismatic. I would have laid down my life for him. I love him. I felt as if I would never be able to trust again.

Just a few months ago, the Lord spoke to me about the man He wanted to be my pastor. I was literally physically sick at the thought of speaking to him about it. He had given me no reason not to trust him, but because of my bad experiences, I was in a cold sweat of dread.

In fact, I humbled myself and swallowed my pride, and called his wife and confessed my fears. I could more easily trust her, you see, because she is a lady, and I have always been blessed by good women in my life. My Granny raised me, and I learned to trust women more than men.

She reassured me, and promised to pray for me, but it was still three more months before I had the conversation, and even then, it was divinely orchestrated.

So believe me, I know what it is to have trust issues.

But you still have to conquer them, regardless of how difficult or insurmountable it may seem.

Nuh-uh, I do not neither! and you can't make me, and you're not the boss of me. la la la la la, I can't hear you, la la la la la, not listening, la la la la la

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Hurt by false accusations?

Hold on just a minute here...are we more serious than I thought we were?

Did you take my general statement about pontification as an accusation?

So before you sit back and stick out your chest and pontificate about how ignorant your pastor's advice to someone or decision about something is, bear in mind that just might not know all the facts.

Yes. I wasn't sure if this was directed at someone or just a general comment, so I asked. It sounded like very strong wording and I wasn't sure what you were aiming at. Maybe you just had a strong reaction to the pontification that you've seen in the past and felt a need to post this. Otherwise you may have written "Remember that sometimes pastors have more facts than you do" which would have made the point.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Alright then. Barring false doctrines and cultish natures, and assuming it is the church I attend? Then, no, I would not give advice contrary to that of my pastor. I would either refer the person back to the pastor, refer them to prayer, speak to the pastor myself, privately, about my concerns (without the other person's knowledge, so as not to give the illusion of a less-than-united front), or maybe all three.

I'm not the pastor. I don't say or do things contrary the pastor, or anything that is involved in his leadership of the church, including what counsel he gives to folks. That is not my place, and I revert back to my original statement--it's divisive. The only way it would avoid the "divisive" label would be for me to direct my concerns directly to the pastor---never undermine him by speaking against him or his advice behind his back or without his knowledge.

Then I assume that your relationship is built on trust. I can see responding this way when you trust your pastor.