1000 year reign

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes our difference is you taking away a whole book of scriptures relevance to all Christians who lived for the last 19 centuries by teaching it is past. The approach that it is purely symbolic leaves us no common ground.

Oh, please, not that "no common ground" again. (sigh)

I have been trying to deal with you about COMMON GROUND OF 1 Cor 15, which we both agree is not SYMBOLIC. And I am trying to show you by repeating myself FAR MORE TIMES THAN NECESSARY, in utter fairness beyond what is necessary, that if you take Revelation 20 naturally then you DO VIOLENCE TO 1 Cor 15 which states that ALL ENEMIES are destroyed at the rapture. Instead of dealing with that today, as YOU DID deal with it yesterday, you revert back to your old pattern of saying, "but but but what about this other thing?"

When Jesus spoke to the Church at Smyrna:...

More avoidance of my issues. (sigh). Brother, when will you discuss this in orderly fashion and deal with 1 Cor 15 as I have been doing with you for days now, instead of hopping all over the place?

You STARTED to do that yesterday. Now you are way off on something else again now.

Just admit you cannot answer 1 Cor 15 if you can't. And if you are not avoiding it, then why do you stray from that point and go into all sorts of other issues?

I am trying to make this easy to deal with. If 1 Cor 15 contradicts the thought of taking Rev 20 naturally as you do, then everything else falls into place. But we have to deal with things in orderly fashion and not go from one of the spectrum to another instead of dealing with the issues presented until such issues are settled. You appear to be saying, "I cannot answer that, but what about this?" If so, let me know.

[Michael The Disciple]

17: For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18: But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19: And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20: There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21: And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22: They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23: They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

In answer to this you said:

That is speaking about the time before the rapture, and is not saying what you think it is saying

.

[]Please tell us when this has ever happened? People living so long if they died at 100 years old they would have been a child? Where are the Christians that live the life span as a tree?

I mean you said this is BEFORE THE RAPTURE right?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Where do you get the Church prayed down Romes power in the first century. What do you mean by that? Rome reigned over many nations for another 350 years after the 1st century. And until the time of Constantine put to death multitudes of Christians.

Brother, Nero was the perpetrator of tribulation in daniel 7 when the fourth beast terrorized the church. And when jesus took dominion that meant the SAINTS were given dominion, (See Rev 5:9-10), and took away the power of the fourth beast. NERO was prayed down by the church. the dude committed suicide, and that is when I claim the church overcame by the blood of ht elamb and the word of their testimony. WHAT AN EXAMPLE AND ENCOURAGEMENT TO US!

Here is a writing I made a few years ago about your very sort of accusation.

Prophecy involves more than unfulfilled disasters, and has great implications concerning WHAT THE CHURCH COULD and SHOULD BE DOING RIGHT NOW.

Saying we render Revelation as irrelevant to the church of our day and to each of us as Believers is extremely incorrect. In fact, past fulfillment causes one to realize just how much more we should be doing for the Lord because of its implications. Brother, my personal entire concept has changed about my life as a Christian right in the here and now as a result of this understanding!

To look at the events of Revelation, for the most part, as having already been fulfilled, implies a very vital truth. And it is this implication that has simply overhauled my own life as a Christian.

If we were to relegate any past events of history as recorded in the Bible as irrelevant to our lives as Christians, then we had better throw out most of the New Testament! All four gospels are the history of Christ's ministry in this world. The crucifixion is a historical event! The book of Acts is the history of the early church. Much of the epistles speak about Paul's words concerning the problems with the various churches in that first century. Throw these books out, if history is irrelevant to our day today!

However, we all know such a thought is ridiculous! We need the accounts of Christ's life and crucifixion. We need the accounts of the early church in the book of Acts and the lists of problems and how Paul dealt with them in the early church period. Why? These events have IMPLICATIONS that affect our lives today as believers. I do not even have to explain the need for such implications, as that should be obvious to any believer today. But the correct approach to the book of Revelation is no less a valid point that should urge us to greatly value this book today.

The thought that the destruction of Jerusalem, for rejecting Christ and calling for pagan Caesar to be her king instead, as we propose is a great issue in the Book of Revelation, tells us that the destruction is all past and fulfilled. The implications to this proposition are enormous! We end up with the City of the New Jerusalem with a river of life flowing from it, and a tree of life with leaves for the nations' healing and fruit for meat. And just before John says "Amen", he wrote words inviting all who thirst to come to this very River of Life and drink, right now, of its waters!

We propose the City is the church of Jesus Christ! Do we do so as the result of flights of fancy interpretation? Absolutely not. Jesus, Himself called us a city!

quote: Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.


The writer of Hebrews synonymously called the church the Heavenly Jerusalem.

quote: Heb 12:22-23 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, (23) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Paul wrote about the mother, the church, as Jerusalem which is above.

quote: Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.



Jerusalem above is not going to be the mother of us all. She is and she was 2000 years ago in Paul's day! She "is" the mother of us all.

God foretold that His people would be called a city!

quote: Isa 60:1-3 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. (2) For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. (3) And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.


The early church viewed this prophecy as speaking about their day.

quote: Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.


And Isaiah continues and reads:

quote: Isa 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

Isa 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.


People might say this has not been fulfilled, despite the words of Acts 13:47, but nobody can deny that these words are saying that it is the PEOPLE OF GOD that are to be called a City. Isaiah 62 plainly states this to be so!

quote: Isa 62:12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.


What does this imply? What does this tell us if we are to understand that we are already in the New Jerusalem, in the form of the New Testament church? It means a lot!

It means that we should be ruling and reigning as Kings right now. The dominion that everyone is waiting for to exert over the earth in the future, is a dominion we should be enjoying right now! This shook me to my very core! I was waiting for the millennium to begin and to one day rule as a king and priest. But I realized God already made us these things.

quote: Rev 1:5-6 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (6) And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


"Hath made" is past tense! We were made kings and priests. Hello, kings and priests!

So what does it mean, then, to rule over certain cities, if this is a "now" thing?

It means revival! Church, we should be ruling our cities by having such mighty revival that righteousness begins prevailing in our communities. To one is given ten cities. This means on member of the church has enough power and anointing and ministry to lead revivals in ten cities! Do you deny this? Would not not say God could do this? Church, this message has challenged my soul and pushed me towards greater victories and more powerful influence through my own ministry! I was shaken to the core when these thoughts hit me. I thought of much time I have wasted! I was waiting for millennium to rule and reign with Jesus. But I realized I can rule right now in victory over my own life, by enjoying power over sin, as Paul indicated in Romans 6 when he said "sin shall not have dominion over you."

I began to see how anemic the church has become!

Continued...

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

17: For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18: But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19: And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20: There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21: And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22: They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23: They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

In answer to this you said:

.

[]Please tell us when this has ever happened? People living so long if they died at 100 years old they would have been a child? Where are the Christians that live the life span as a tree?

I mean you said this is BEFORE THE RAPTURE right?

You never even read my post did you? Read it again. You have Isaiah wrong, brother.

[mfblume]

..continued

If that city is the people of God right now, as all indications from the rest of the Bible, as far as I see them, are telling me, then I need to get off my backside and start ruling and overcoming obstacles and stepping out in faith for God to use me in revival! If my thoughts are correct, then there are thousands of churches that are wasting precious time in thinking they are not yet kings and priests, and cannot rule right now. They are satisfied to think they are a witness in their city, and so long as they have open doors on Sunday, for hungry souls to come if they really want Jesus, then they are doing God's will.

No, they are not!

We need to be conquering our cities. We need to be stomping out the effects of devils and unclean spirits in our towns, by starting to live victoriously in our personal lives! We have saints who can barely hold onto Jesus, let alone conquer temptation in their lives, and refuse to let sin have dominion over them.

Unbelief runs rampant! Please understand I am not trying to be mean and hard. It's just the truth! Paul said sin shall not have dominion over you, since you have been buried into Jesus' death, and have thereby caused the destruction of the old man, so we should not serve sin. Yet believers look at such a thing as impossible because "we still have this old flesh." However, Paul contended that, despite our mortal bodies, God's Spirit can quicken these bodies so that we should not live the rest of our days to the lust of the flesh and to the flesh. Paul did it!

quote: Rom 8:11-12 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.


What reason did Paul give for not having to be debtors to live after the flesh? It was because Christ's Spirit is in us to quicken our mortal bodies. That means that He can empower us right now while we have mortal bodies, so that we do not have sin reign over us.

quote: Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.


He is contrasting sin ruling in our mortal bodies, with our mortal bodies being quickened to no longer live after the flesh!

Meanwhile, saints do not believe this is possible! This "old flesh" still holds us down so much, and we won't have victory until we are changed. No sir! Paul said that in this present life sin does not have to have dominion over us. We should dominate sin! We are, presently, kings and priests! And we shall rule in this world!

No, I am not speaking about KINGDOM NOW doctrine, that proposes we take over the government offices of Ottawa and Washington.

We've got churches where there are not any more gifts of the Spirit in operation than an occasional message in tongues and an interpretation of tongues, or a healing every few months, and yet we call ourselves "Apostolic"!

This message stirred me up!

The ramifications of the fact that the wrath and destruction in the Book of Revelation is fulfilled, leads one to realize that this City needs to be pumping out the River of Life so that all who are athirst can come and drink of its waters right now, not 2,000 years from now, or even 10 years from now!

Jesus clearly explained that the river of living waters is the Holy Ghost that is a well inside us!

quote: John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


How can we read these verses, and then interpret Revelation's river of living water as a literal and physical river of H20?

And the tree of life is in the church, also.

Compare:

quote: Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Psa 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.


I am glad that David wrote that the saint of God is like a tree whose leaf does not whither, because Revelation reads that those leaves are for the healing of the nations! This is speaking about saints of God who walk not in the way of sinners, not sit in the seat of the scornful! Read the previous two verses in Psalm 1. And the fruit is brought forth in his season, just as Revelation stated that the fruit was yielded every month. This is figurative talk, juts like Psalm 1:3 was figurative talk, of the saints of God.

And this Psalm chimes in harmony with these words:

quote: Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.


"...that they might be called trees of righteousness"

Jesus is inside us as the Holy Ghost, and pours forth the Rivers of Living water. Or rather, He should be pouring it forth from our lives. The fact is that many believers are defeated and the River is locked up within their souls and not pouring out.

Now, it has been said that such interpretations of Revelation are flights of fancy, without basis and foundation. However, I have quoted Psalm 1:3, which nobody would deny was not speaking figuratively about the saints of God. Psalm 1:1-2 says so! So I am simply making references of the things noted throughout Revelation, that I claim are figurative, to their established use of figures of speech in the rest of the Bible.

Revelation stated that the New Jerusalem had twelve foundations having a name of the twelve apostles in each foundation. Paul already interpreted that for us as follows:

quote: Ephesians 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: (22) In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


DOES IT MATTER IF WE STUDY REVELATION OR NOT?

quote: Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: ...


I formerly noted that many relegate study of Revelation to be a lesser issue of importance than other biblical issues. Such thinking is extremely wrong. Revelation is an entire book of the Bible! Would God have us relegate an entire book of the Bible to be something of lesser concern than the rest of the Bible? Think of it. God took time and inspiration to move upon His servant, John, to write an entire book that people are casting aside today as unimportant. Oh, they might claim it's important, alright, but not as important as other issues.

I disagree. God wants us to clearly understand all of the Bible. And the temptation to cast off any study of Revelation whatsoever goes hand in hand with the thought that it is not as important as other issues.

Let me address this concept of this book by asking whether or not realization of how much more we should be doing as the church today, in the way of seeing more dominion in our personal lives and churches, is important? I think all would respond with a resounding YES! Well, this is the sort of thinking that thundered in my ears and echoed for months after I began looking at Revelation in this light.

I suggest that the reason people cast Revelation aside as a lesser book, is due to the influence of futurist interpretation of this book. Since these events are not occurring yet, and are off in the future somewhere, even if only ten years away, then all we can derive from it is the hope that evil will be over one day, and go on our merry way and simply staying saved for the time being. And let's pray we never have to be around in this world when that judgment comes! "Come before the tribulation, Jesus!"

But if everyone felt that these things were fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem, and that the Church is spiritually standing on a sea of glass, shouting Hossana to Jesus, because we accepted Him whereas Jerusalem rejected Him, then this implies a great deal of truths. Revelation 7, in noting this picture, says that the saints serve God day and night in His temple. Are we not the temple of the Holy Ghost now? Do we not serve Him now?

When one realizes that a fulfilled concept of Revelation is true, the implications will impact us so heavily, that we will all feel compelled to loose the power of God out from within our lives so much more than what we presently are, and believe God for greater things than we have dared believe Him for before. I know, because this is what happened to me.

What are the fruits of this interpretation? The fruits are evident in my own ministry. And would not something be truly considered as correct if the results are that it urges one towards greater exploits for the Lord, and a deeper appreciation for what we already have provided for us because of the present experience of the new birth that the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ provided for us? I think so!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

however the END result comes out...I plan to be faithful...Faithfulness to God and His work is embedded in my heart. Somethings may be far beyond my poor ability to understand but I do understand be faithful.

Keep studying, though, sister. God wants us to have an answer for every man concerning our faith.

Do you see now that I do not believe 1 Cor 15:22-23 is past? Do you see that Jesus destroys ALL enemies at the rapture, and ceases to reign then? That is what 1 Cor 15 says!



I claim the difference between what you believe and what I believe, is that my understanding of prophecy allows me to believe God for greater works in this time now than your doctrine allows you. And if it gives us greater hope, then I say folks ought to listen a bit in case we're onto something.

Although Heaven is going to be awesome and greater than what we can ever know now, my belief willl cause song writers to start singing more about the power and glory we can experience NOW, instead of throwing everything over into heaven in the sweet bye and bye.

God bless!

Michael the Disciple,

Let me note that your continuance to avoid 1 Cor 15's details, and instead hopping from one topic to another, make it nigh unto impossible to discuss this issue with you. I do not think we have no common ground to talk about this as you do. My only remark is that you refuse to discuss this in an organized manner by responding to each other point-by-point in one area before going to something else. In other words, if you do not wish to discuss 1 Cor 15, then we might as well bid each other adieu, and cease this issue. If so, thanks so much for our discussion we did have.

[Michael The Disciple]

Mfblume said:


Let me note that your continuance to avoid 1 Cor 15's details, and instead hopping from one topic to another, make it nigh unto impossible to discuss this issue with you. I do not think we have no common ground to talk about this as you do. My only remark is that you refuse to discuss this in an organized manner by responding to each other point-by-point in one area before going to something else. In other words, if you do not wish to discuss 1 Cor 15, then we might as well bid each other adieu, and cease this issue. If so, thanks so much for our discussion we did have.

Me:

Since when is it a rule I have to address every point you make? I told you in post 93 I dont have time to do that. When I mentioned earlier about dropping out of the discussion you cried COP OUT!

I DID address 1 Cor. 15. You brushed it aside. You should be content with yourself. There is FAR MORE THAT IS IMPORTANT to the topic that has not yet been addressed. I will not stop posting scripture relavent to the topic so you can have your way.

If it is adieu ok. It is a good topic posters are allowed to come and go as they please far as I know.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Since when is it a rule I have to address every point you make? I told you in post 93 I dont have time to do that. When I mentioned earlier about dropping out of the discussion you cried COP OUT!

I did not say anything about you dropping off the discussion. I never knew that was your thought. If so, I am sorry. You have to tell me you cannot talk more, is all.

Brother. You fail to even read my notes carefully. I have been trying to get you to deal with ONE ISSUE for days now. That being, 1 Cor 15 and the reference to Christ putting all enemies down at the rapture. THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

You respond as though I went into all sorts of avenues as you did, and expect and answer from you on all those avenues. I HAVE STUICK TO ONE ISSUE. you keep straying and spending your precious time on many varying issues. I am trying to accomodate you, knowing you have limited time, and also to make this an orderly discussion where we deal with an issue one at a time.

You STARTED to respond to 1 Cor 15, and then went into left field again.

I am saying DEAL WITH THIS ONE ISSUE.

I DID address 1 Cor. 15. You brushed it aside.

I did not brush it aside! I dealt with your response point-by-point, and showed you where you overlooked the fact that EVERY ENEMY is put down at the rapture, and never got any response from you on that yet. You are suppposed to respond in trn to my response to you.

You did not do that,. You lept from one end of the spectrum to the other.

You should be content with yourself. There is FAR MORE THAT IS IMPORTANT to the topic that has not yet been addressed. I will not stop posting scripture relavent to the topic so you can have your way.

I am not trying to have my way. LOL. I am trying to deal with one issue at a time. You must not be accustomed to orderly discussion. If I point out an error in your response, you should not fly off into another left field, but respond to that challenge I made about your response.

If it is adieu ok. It is a good topic posters are allowed to come and go as they please far as I know.

Well, your choice.

[Michael The Disciple]

Mfblume

Brother. You fail to even read my notes carefully. I have been trying to get you to deal with ONE ISSUE for days now. That being, 1 Cor 15 and the reference to Christ putting all enemies down at the rapture. THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

Michael the topic is the 1000 year reign. It consists of more than one issue. You have given your thoughts on the matter. I have given mine. If I did not say so before yes if we were only dealing with 1 Cor. 15 I might agree with you.

But we are IMO dealing with the living, relevant, book of Revelation. If it is future it makes all the difference.

Also we are dealing with much scripture in the Tanakh. I dont believe we can spiritual ize all of it away. I am referring to those verses not because I am hopping all over a bunch of other issues but because they serve to bolster the truth of the Lords reign on Earth.

I am not trying to have my way. LOL. I am trying to deal with one issue at a time. You must not be accustomed to orderly discussion. If I point out an error in your response, you should not fly off into another left field, but respond to that challenge I made about your response.

But when I already know you dont see it is it not a waste of my time to go over it again and again just for you to continue to reprove what I already said? Thats why I said since you feel you have overwhelmed my point that 1 Cor. 15 must be put into the mix of the whole end time topic so be happy with that thought and lets look into some other things.

Evidently you are satisfied with what you said. Would you agree theres more than that to the topic?

When I talk to the Trins sometimes they want me to stay on one scripture forever. Such as Matt. 28:19. They think that that one verse settles the issue. Would you think I was hip hopping all over the place if I wanted to take them over to Acts 2:38 or Isaiah 9:6?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Mfblume
Michael the topic is the 1000 year reign. It consists of more than one issue. You have given your thoughts on the matter. I have given mine. If I did not say so before yes if we were only dealing with 1 Cor. 15 I might agree with you.

We do not hop from one issue in the subject to another without first completing a discussion on any given point. You cannot overlook a serious erorr in your response when I point it out to you and pretend you never made it.

I know the issue is 1000 years, but we began discussing the overall error of your view in showing that natural interpretation of Rev 20 conflicts with plain statements in 1 Cor 15. When you responded to my note about that, I pointed out that you overlooked the fact that ALL ENEMIES are defeated by Christ at the rapture. You never responded in turn. So the issue is unresolved.

You left a gaping hole in your argument similar to an example (somewhat dumb example, but you'll get my drift to show you my point), of me telling you that Jesus did not die on the cross. Let's say you respond to that error, saying that is nonsense. Jesus DID die on a cross. And then I never respond in return. You would not discuss with me if I did that, but that is what you have done with 1 Cor 15.

But we are IMO dealing with the living, relevant, book of Revelation. If it is future it makes all the difference.

And that is exactly why I am going to 1 Cor 15's PLAIN READING to show you that your version of Rev 20 makes no sense in light of the info in 1 Cor 15.

Also we are dealing with much scripture in the Tanakh. I dont believe we can spiritual ize all of it away. I am referring to those verses not because I am hopping all over a bunch of other issues but because they serve to bolster the truth of the Lords reign on Earth.

But when I already know you dont see it is it not a waste of my time to go over it again and again just for you to continue to reprove what I already said? Thats why I said since you feel you have overwhelmed my point that 1 Cor. 15 must be put into the mix of the whole end time topic so be happy with that thought and lets look into some other things.

Brother, I see you simply are not willing to deal with issues that jeopardize your position. If you cannot answer me how all Christ's enemies ARE NOT defeated at the rapture, in 1 Cor 15, then I see your entire doctrine defeated. When you say only OUR DEATHS are dealt with at the rapture, and I respond, correcting you, by saying ALL ENEMIES are dealt with at the rapture, meaning NO PHYSICAL DEATHS can later occur in some millennium, and you jump to another topic, you simply seem to not want to discuss this orderly and fully, and appear to avoid what jeopardizes your position.

Evidently you are satisfied with what you said. Would you agree theres more than that to the topic?

Yes there is more. But you have not answered my response to your response. And I know something is amiss when you say I disregard your response when I catully responded point by point.

When I talk to the Trins sometimes they want me to stay on one scripture forever. Such as Matt. 28:19. They think that that one verse settles the issue. Would you think I was hip hopping all over the place if I wanted to take them over to Acts 2:38 or Isaiah 9:6?

Brother, let's be honest here. You said ONLY OUR DEATHS ARE DEALT WITH AT THE RAPTURE. I showed you that is not correct, because Paul said ALL ENEMIES of Christ are defeated at the point of the rapture. And you expect me to leave it at that without a response in turn from you? That is far cry from exhausting Matt 28:19 with trinitarians.

Sounds to me like you cannot answer me, and perhaps realize your view is tainted by 1 Cor 15. HOW can yo uwalk away from such an important question?

Anyway, after all these requests for you to respond to me, it seems clear you will not. So I leave you with this reminder:

Paul said all enemies of Christ are defeated at the rapture, which is why He then hands over the Kingdom to the Father. Since the last OF ALL ENEMIES destroyed is death, which marks the moment Christ hands all the kingdom to the Father, and this is said to specifically occur at the rapture, there are no more physical deaths in some millennium that you allege will occur after the rapture. And since all enemies are destroyed at this point, there can also be no sinners (ENEMIES OF CHRIST) who have physical deaths awaiting them after the rapture, as your millennialism teaches.

According to the plain statements made in 1 Cor1 5, there can be no millennium after the rapture. This demands us realize the 1000 years in Rev is the church age. This fits with the scriptures that teach we sit on the throne with Christ now over all names and powes IN THIS WORLD, and also fits with the most oft-quoted verse from the Old Testament that is found in the New... Psalm 110:1... Christ is on the right hand until His enemies be made his footstool. Chirst ceases to reign from the point when His enemies are made his footstool, and Paul said that occurs at the rapture. ALL ENEMIES are under his feet then. The Son does not BEGIN to rule after the rapture, but is ruling UNTIL THEN.

This also fits with Rev 20, which states the first resurrection is when the 1000 years begins, and that is the idea of general salvation, which Romans 6:11 and 13 says is resurrection from the dead! Satan is bound by the cross, according to Col 2:15 compared to Matt 12:29.

One point you NEVER responded to was Paul's quote of Isa 25:8 in 1 Cor 15:54. Isaiah 25:8 also says that when death is swallowed up in victory, God wipes away all tears. This perfectly fits with my beliefs that the rapture takes us to the white throne, and not to a millennium, because Rev 21:4 says God wipes away all tears after the white throne, and it is then that death is GONE FOREVER, just as I claimed the rapture takes us to the white throne.

God bless! I've enjoyed it.