Show Me the Money

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

MOW,

But what does the Bible say to do? Who does the tithe belong to?

Mizpeh, if you haven't read it already, I think you should read Daniel's post below in its entirety.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

This teaching that tithing goes exclusively to the ministry ... as defined by the preacher man/Levite is ANTI-BIBLICAL.

Something to ponder about the biblical purposes of the tithe

http://www.geocities.com/hotsprings/3658/tithing.html

What was the purpose of tithing in the Old Testament?

There were four tithes in the Old Testament.

1. The people paid a general tithe to the Levites
“I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting” (Numbers 18:21).

All the tribes of Israel, except the Levites, had a designated geographical area as their “inheritance”. But the Levites — in return for their work within the nation — received income tax of 10% from the rest of the population.


The Levites functioned as:
• the Health Inspectors,
• the Police,
• the Justice Department, and
• the Education Department.
To put it simply, the Levites were the Public Service in Israel, and they were supported by a system of income tax called “tithes”.


2. The Levites paid a tithe of the general tithe to the priests
The Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the Levites and say to them: ‘When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the Lord’s offering…to Aaron the priest…’” (Numbers 18:25-31).

All the priests were Levites, but not all Levites were priests. The priestly caste were descended from Aaron and they had specific responsibilities related to the Temple worship.


The second tithe guaranteed the financial security of the priests, and thereby protected the Temple system.

3. The people kept a tithe to pay for their annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem

Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the Lord your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the Lord your God always.

But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the Lord your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the Lord will choose to put his Name is so far away), then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose.
Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice (Deuteronomy 14:22-26).

The people of Israel were required to assemble three times a year at Jerusalem (as the place chosen by the Lord) for the major feasts.


This was meant to be a time of rejoicing and the Lord ensured that everybody had sufficient resources available to enable them to fully enter into the rejoicing by commanding that they set aside 10% of their annual income for that purpose.


Notice the next verse (27), “And do not neglect the Levites…” This was a reference to the first tithe. In other words, the third tithe — for the annual feasts — was not to be confused with the separate and distinct general tithe for the Levites.


4. The people paid a tithe for the poor, the orphans and the widows

At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in that year, and shall deposit it in your town. And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance among you, and the alien, the orphan and the widow who are in your town, shall come and eat and be satisfied, in order that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do (Deuteronomy 14:28-29).

This tithe went to the poor, the widows and the orphans. In Australia that is called “Social Security”. It was payable once every three years, which equals one-third of a tenth annually.


These tithes were not ‘gifts’, they were taxes. The total tithes paid by the Israelites were 23.3% of their total income, about the same as what the average Australian pays today in income tax.



Tax to whom tax is due…
Render to all what is due to them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour (Romans 13:7).
As we move into the New Testament, we find that nothing has changed. We still pay taxes to finance the Public Service and the Social Security system.

Bring the whole tithe…
“Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the Lord of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven, and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows” (Malachi 3:10).
Here we have the tithing teachers’ favourite verse in the whole Bible. On this verse they hang most of their doctrine. But if we take a close look at the verse, we will find something very interesting.


Remember that there were four tithes in Israel under the Old Covenant. Which one is referred to here?

And the priest, the son of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes, and the Levites shall bring up the tenth of the tithes to the house of our God, to the chambers of the storehouse (Nehemiah 10:38).
[ Note: The word ‘storehouse’ is translated as ‘treasure house’ in the KJV. The Hebrew is the same in both Nehemiah and Malachi, outsair, meaning a treasure or a store house. ]

Which of the four tithes is in view in Malachi?
The tithe payable by the Levites, not the tithes payable by the people. Malachi is not rebuking the people, he is rebuking the Levites.
When our modern day tithing teachers point this verse at the people, they are really pointing at themselves — except that most of them are too ignorant to recognise the fact.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

In the hills of Kentucky the saying was "Lord you keep them(the preacher) humble and we will keep them poor." Worked for them.

I feel no call to KY.Perhaps West ,TN is calling.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

Somebody also supported him for three years....


I personally could care less what our Pastor does with my Tithe and Offering. He does not take a salary at this time and has bolstered the church with his own funds for the last year he has been here.

I personally do care into what I invest the resources God has entrusted into my hands. The parable of the talents well tells us we are individually responsible and you are not off the hook just because you placed them in the offering plate.

Spiritual leaders that are "worthy of their hire" have no complaints from those that support them. I'm sure your Pastor is totally trust worthy, however it may be your responsibility to help him in the oversight at some point. You may do him a disservice if you don't hold him accountable.

+

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Alter Ego

Again, I believe in full disclosure of church finances. I also believe that it would be best if the pastor appointed a trusted advisory panel to account for all monies. No pastor in their right mind wants to worry about the church finances. Who wouldn't want someone else to handle all of the gory details?

I just think that his personal finances are off limits to the prying eyes of gossiping busybodies. I also reject the notion that they should take some weird vow of poverty.

No one has suggested that the pastor be abused or mistreated in any way, it is certainly not everyone's business what the pastor's family does with his compensation. Matter of fact, in my experience most members really have no real interest in the pastor's compensation, as long as there is elder team oversight, with pastor as the first among equals, shepherds of the flock.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

In most churches, the tithe makes up the lion share of the total income. If I took all the tithes, I would constantly have to come back to the people on a regular basis and take up offering after offering just to pay the expenses.

Show me, under the Levitical code, where the priests get rich off the offerings the people bring into the tabernacle. I believe in reasonable compensation and the people in the two churches I have pastored have NEVER tried to deprive me or my family of a comfortable living.

Point #1 LEGALLY, if the pastor receives or has control of the tithing account, he is liable to pay taxes on ALL of it, even if he doesn't use it for his own purposes. Failure to do so, is considered tax evasion. I am involved in a situation right now where a pastor may end going to prison for this exact same thing.

The biblical tithe was to take care of the ministry not give them opulent lifestyles. Take Rick Warren's for example: He has become quite rich due to the Purpose Driven Life book. He has given back his salary from the church, I think for the prvious 10 or 15 yrs because he didn't need the church's money.

Saying the pastor gets all the tithes, I believe, is an excuse for no accountability, and using more than a man of God should.

Great post, I have no idea why this is burdensome or why it is hard to understand the wisdom of this approach.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

You possess the qualities of a leader...you are very perceptive and make a great addition to any church leadership team or board of trustees.

What I possess, I pray is the wisdom that scripture tells us to ask for, of which I have asked many times. I have and do serve on a leadership team, it is hard work, but to see the body function as one is worth it. I understand what it is to have antagonist to buffet the leadership team, that is why we must have seasoned leaders that are not personal agenda driven. Timothy gives the basic qualifications required of elders, and every one of those qualifications are needed for the job.

Thank you for you kind words.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Great post, I have no idea why this is burdensome or why it is hard to understand the wisdom of this approach.

It's not burdensome not hard to understand the wisdom of his approach. I would just like to see some scripture to support it.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea
This teaching that tithing goes exclusively to the ministry ... as defined by the preacher man/Levite is ANTI-BIBLICAL.

Something to ponder about the biblical purposes of the tithe

http://www.geocities.com/hotsprings/3658/tithing.html

What was the purpose of tithing in the Old Testament?

There were four tithes in the Old Testament.

1. The people paid a general tithe to the Levites
“I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting” (Numbers 18:21).

All the tribes of Israel, except the Levites, had a designated geographical area as their “inheritance”. But the Levites — in return for their work within the nation — received income tax of 10% from the rest of the population.


The Levites functioned as:
• the Health Inspectors,
• the Police,
• the Justice Department, and
• the Education Department.
To put it simply, the Levites were the Public Service in Israel, and they were supported by a system of income tax called “tithes”.


2. The Levites paid a tithe of the general tithe to the priests
The Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the Levites and say to them: ‘When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the Lord’s offering…to Aaron the priest…’” (Numbers 18:25-31).

All the priests were Levites, but not all Levites were priests. The priestly caste were descended from Aaron and they had specific responsibilities related to the Temple worship.


The second tithe guaranteed the financial security of the priests, and thereby protected the Temple system.

3. The people kept a tithe to pay for their annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem

Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the Lord your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the Lord your God always.

But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the Lord your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the Lord will choose to put his Name is so far away), then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose.
Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice (Deuteronomy 14:22-26).

The people of Israel were required to assemble three times a year at Jerusalem (as the place chosen by the Lord) for the major feasts.


This was meant to be a time of rejoicing and the Lord ensured that everybody had sufficient resources available to enable them to fully enter into the rejoicing by commanding that they set aside 10% of their annual income for that purpose.


Notice the next verse (27), “And do not neglect the Levites…” This was a reference to the first tithe. In other words, the third tithe — for the annual feasts — was not to be confused with the separate and distinct general tithe for the Levites.


4. The people paid a tithe for the poor, the orphans and the widows

At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in that year, and shall deposit it in your town. And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance among you, and the alien, the orphan and the widow who are in your town, shall come and eat and be satisfied, in order that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do (Deuteronomy 14:28-29).

This tithe went to the poor, the widows and the orphans. In Australia that is called “Social Security”. It was payable once every three years, which equals one-third of a tenth annually.


These tithes were not ‘gifts’, they were taxes. The total tithes paid by the Israelites were 23.3% of their total income, about the same as what the average Australian pays today in income tax.



Tax to whom tax is due…
Render to all what is due to them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour (Romans 13:7).
As we move into the New Testament, we find that nothing has changed. We still pay taxes to finance the Public Service and the Social Security system.

Bring the whole tithe…
“Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the Lord of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven, and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows” (Malachi 3:10).
Here we have the tithing teachers’ favourite verse in the whole Bible. On this verse they hang most of their doctrine. But if we take a close look at the verse, we will find something very interesting.


Remember that there were four tithes in Israel under the Old Covenant. Which one is referred to here?

And the priest, the son of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes, and the Levites shall bring up the tenth of the tithes to the house of our God, to the chambers of the storehouse (Nehemiah 10:38).
[ Note: The word ‘storehouse’ is translated as ‘treasure house’ in the KJV. The Hebrew is the same in both Nehemiah and Malachi, outsair, meaning a treasure or a store house. ]

Which of the four tithes is in view in Malachi?
The tithe payable by the Levites, not the tithes payable by the people. Malachi is not rebuking the people, he is rebuking the Levites.
When our modern day tithing teachers point this verse at the people, they are really pointing at themselves — except that most of them are too ignorant to recognise the fact.

Dan,

I just read this post and have a few questions.

1) What do you suppose the writer of this paper intends tithes for Christians to be? From what I understand he considers tithing to be paying taxes to the government for services provided. Do you believe he is suggesting the government will give preachers (priests or ministers of the word) 10% of the total tax?

2) 10% over 3 years as a type of Social Security (to the poor, elderly, widows, immigrants)

3) 10% on vacations.

Does this person support those who labor in the word of God?

Malachi 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

I understand this passage above to be speaking to the whole nation of Israel not just the Levites as quoted in your post.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Which of the four tithes is in view in Malachi?
The tithe payable by the Levites, not the tithes payable by the people. Malachi is not rebuking the people, he is rebuking the Levites.
When our modern day tithing teachers point this verse at the people, they are really pointing at themselves — except that most of them are too ignorant to recognise the fact.

This is a very good point. Concerning j-roc's original point, I have an anecdote:

I was standing in line at a local cafeteria one Sunday afternoon along with saints from two or three different Apostolic churches in the area. While gathering my family together at the door I saw a huge stretch limo pull up and the gull wing door unfolded revealing a Pastor of my acquaintance coming up out of the car like a tuxedoed alien emerging from a spacecraft.

The driver was busily helping the First Lady out of the other side of the limo. The Pastor and his wife then joined my wife and I (we arrived in a Ford Tempo, shiny and new!). We had lunch together at the cafeteria and probably paid less than $20 for our meals - nothing fancy. Then the limo was brought up on cue and the Pastor and First Lady were tucked carefully inside and off they went. Such a production for a lunch at a cafeteria? It was embarassing.

Long story short: He pastored a church of around 50 to 75 people. One man in that church had inherited several million dollars, of which he gave 10% to the pastor and then paid off the building. Of course, it's his money (now their money) and they can do with it as they please. But it's been really weird going to lunch with these people ever since. True story.

Meanwhile, we buried a 10 year old boy recently. The single mom was unable to work since she was constantly at the hospital with her son. My youngest went to visit them over night once and cried when I picked him up. He cried both out of relief that I was there to get him and out of the feelings of desperation for his friend's circumstances.

It would have been nice to have had a fund to pull a few hundred dollars from so that we could have helped that family more. But in most Apostolic churches that money is controlled by the pastor. Things are changing a little, but how many millionaires have we created? And, how much good could we have done with that money for the saints who were suffering?

My entire life's work sits on a busy street with high commercial real estate value. There is an entrepreneurial "pastor" and his First Lady licking their fingers right now over the prospect of taking the money and getting out of town with it. They arrived with $30,000 of debt that the church helped them with. Now, they've been kicking the stubborn old guard out and have even raided the older pastor's retirement fund.

Pentecost is a business with real cutthroat competition for the high dollar prizes that are awarded. The fault for this lies with the average Joe who doesn't ask questions because he doesn't want to rock the boat.

[Truthseeker]

Bro Dan

How did you come about there was four tithes?

From what I read where tithe was given depended on what year, such as every 7th year they kept the tithe for themselves. Won't hear that preached this sunday.