Witch of Endor

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Are those on the same level as raising dead prophets against the will of God to prophesy? Weird stuff happens, doesn't mean some demonized witch can summon dead prophets to prophesy.




Job is interestingly enough classed with the wisdom and poetry books rather than the history or prophetical books. In any event, the US Government admits to weather modification. Doesn't mean they can raise the dead.

The focus is more on Saul"s hypocrisy, then this witch's power to speak to the dead. Saul enforces the law, removes the witches. Then when God places Saul on the pay no mind list, Saul breaks the law in disguise. Saul tells the woman to specifically bring up Samuel. Yet when Samuel appears, the woman is horrified. Obviously, she wasn't expecting to see Samuel. Saul was wanting Samuel to tell Saul what to do. But, Samuel just goes on to inform Saul that Saul and his sons will die. Samuel is awoken to give Saul his prophecy of destruction. God became Saul's enemy. Samuel tells Saul that his prophecy of Saul having the kingdom taken from him is done, Saul and sons will be dead. No lying spirit involved in this scenario. Samuel was brought up beyond any magic that woman of Endor could muster. Samuel was brought up to read Saul his last rights.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Again, the writer of Samuel says it was Samuel.

1 Samuel 28:12

And when the woman saw SAMUEL, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

Not one manuscript in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek says anything different.
The woman saw Samuel, not an angel, not a demon, certainly not a lying spirit, because Samuel tells Saul that Saul and his sons will die in battle. Which is what happened.

But here is the kicker, and it is the narration of the writer of 1st Samuel.

1 Samuel 28:15

And SAMUEL said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

We are told that this was Samuel.

We are told this by the narrator of the story.

That’s the way I see it.

[diakonos]

I had an assistant pastor who was adamant that it was a demon that was brought up BECAUSE God forbids necromancy.

When, clearly, God allowed this to happen to give Saul a message.

Even Samuel is like, “Bro, I was sleeping. Why did you wake me up?”

[votivesoul]

Just a little point to add to the discussion, neither in favor of, or against, any one particular position:

Not only did the woman claim to see "Samuel", when Saul asked her what she was seeing after she cried out in what is presumably terror or horror or shock (etc.), she said:

"I saw an elohim..."

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_samuel/28-13.htm

For those not in the know, elohim is the most common Hebrew word for God, but also can be translated as "a god", or "gods", and generally connotes any kind of beings and/or entities that live in the spirit realm.

It makes the story more interesting, in my opinion, trying to determine just what she meant by the use of the term. Was Samuel, such as she perceived him, an elohim to her?

[votivesoul]

A second point to add to the discussion.

It seems that this story is something of a litmus test on our a priori assumptions regarding what we think happens when someone dies, and how we think the afterlife functions or operates.

However, whatever our a priori assumptions, we have to be careful to read the text as it stands, not as we might want it to read.

[shag]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

A second point to add to the discussion.

It seems that this story is something of a litmus test on our a priori assumptions regarding what we think happens when someone dies, and how we think the afterlife functions or operates.

However, whatever our a priori assumptions, we have to be careful to read the text as it stands, not as we might want it to read.

Indeed…
I was discussing this subject, Sunday, with an elder preacher of our church, and couple of times he verbally went to “ I believe when we die, the spirit goes directly back to God, who gave it”.

Without question that was a motivating reason for believing the “”(what’s that high dollar word?) was not, could not have been, Samuel.

[Amanah]

I don't think we understand everything about the bible perfectly.
Scripture has a depth that we can spend a lifetime reading and studying and still learn something new.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Just a little point to add to the discussion, neither in favor of, or against, any one particular position:

Not only did the woman claim to see "Samuel", when Saul asked her what she was seeing after she cried out in what is presumably terror or horror or shock (etc.), she said:

"I saw an elohim..."

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_samuel/28-13.htm

For those not in the know, elohim is the most common Hebrew word for God, but also can be translated as "a god", or "gods", and generally connotes any kind of beings and/or entities that live in the spirit realm.

It makes the story more interesting, in my opinion, trying to determine just what she meant by the use of the term. Was Samuel, such as she perceived him, an elohim to her?

The NAS interprets the verse this way:

But the king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a divine being coming up from the earth.”

In the LXX the Greek uses the word “gods”

Anyway you slice it she didn’t expect to see what she saw. Emphasis is on Saul’s hypocrisy, and even though was once chosen, he became God’s enemy. Samuel is awoken from his sleep to solidify the fact that Saul is finished.

[loran adkins]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The NAS interprets the verse this way:

But the king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a divine being coming up from the earth.”

In the LXX the Greek uses the word “gods”

Anyway you slice it she didn’t expect to see what she saw. Emphasis is on Saul’s hypocrisy, and even though was once chosen, he became God’s enemy. Samuel is awoken from his sleep to solidify the fact that Saul is finished.

It seems to me that we as Christians tend to idolize those that we have put up in ministry. Instead of being like David and learning to go to God ourselves, we tend to put our trust in what is said by those in ministry. For the most part the nation of Israel had conditioned themselves to this all the way back on the road from Egypt when they told Moses to speak for them because they did not want to speak to God themselves.
I don't believe it was Gods intention that is was to be that way. God wanted individual relationship with his creation. Even today we let one man be over us as opposed to having a more personal relationship with God. We are more inclined to trust the man that we have let be over us than to let God speak to us directly.
Had Saul had the right relationship with God he would not ended up the way he did

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Just a little point to add to the discussion, neither in favor of, or against, any one particular position:

Not only did the woman claim to see "Samuel", when Saul asked her what she was seeing after she cried out in what is presumably terror or horror or shock (etc.), she said:

"I saw an elohim..."

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_samuel/28-13.htm

For those not in the know, elohim is the most common Hebrew word for God, but also can be translated as "a god", or "gods", and generally connotes any kind of beings and/or entities that live in the spirit realm.

It makes the story more interesting, in my opinion, trying to determine just what she meant by the use of the term. Was Samuel, such as she perceived him, an elohim to her?

She meant the plural because the verb used is also plural ("they ascend"). Canaanite religion included worship of the "elohim" which included dead ancestors, particularly important royal ancestors, who through the use of the 'ob could be summoned from within the earth to give guidance. The witch was literally a Canaanite shamaness and the events were standard Canaanite religious ritual including the fellowship meal.

Regarding your other post about a priori assumptions, everyone interprets this passage using their presuppositions. People who believe the dead are not really dead just ghosts believe it was really Samuel, people who believe the dead are really dead until resurrection believe it was not really Samuel.

This involves an issue of hermeneutics: do we use singular, obscure passages to direct or even subvert the rest of the whole tenor of Scripture? Or do we allow the whole tenor of Scripture to direct our interpretation of singular and obscure passages?

Personally, I find the "it was really Samuel" view raises a LOT of questions and conflicts - even WITH the common and popular view that people don't really die they just become ghosts somewhere. And when two doctrines or interpretations are compared, and one creates contradictions with itself and the majority of Scripture, and the other doesn't but instead fits with everything else, the choice - for me anyway - is clear.