The story of Saul going to the Witch of Endor has always troubled me.
Leviticus says;
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God
And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Deuteronomy says;
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
This woman calls up the Man of God, Samuel. Then, Samuel proceeds to rebuke Saul, giving him a Prophecy that comes to pass.
I simply don't get the fact that God would even allow Samuel to appear under this type magic, and then give Saul a "Word" which would then take place.
It's stories like these that create havoc in the Religious World. The Scriptures completely condemn any type of talking to or bringing up the dead, yet here a man does it and gets away with it, with results, even though the results were not pleasant.
I guess it would be different if they brought up the Devil, or some other dead person, but Samuel?
Either the bible is nonsense and this proves it, or else there could be a good explanation, I guess. Any explanation would not fit, though, would it?
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
This thread, and others, remind me of the relatively recent new surge of biblical criticism where God is not so much claimed to not exist, but admitted to exist and criticized in what people agree He actually did.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
This thread, and others, remind me of the relatively recent new surge of biblical criticism where God is not so much claimed to not exist, but admitted to exist and criticized in what people agree He actually did.
Bro Blume, why don't you give your take on this story. I promise to behave. (I can't speak for Timmy, though)
This experience has troubled many in the past, not just today. Here's a quick link showing some of the conflict involving calling people up from the dead.
I simply don't get the fact that God would even allow Samuel to appear under this type magic, and then give Saul a "Word" which would then take place.
It's stories like these that create havoc in the Religious World. The Scriptures completely condemn any type of talking to or bringing up the dead, yet here a man does it and gets away with it, with results, even though the results were not pleasant.
I guess it would be different if they brought up the Devil, or some other dead person, but Samuel?
hmmmm.... Interesting. I've read the passage before and I never felt any sort of moral dilemma. I never saw things that way. All I can say is, the lord works in mysterious ways. Why he allowed the real Samuel to appear in the under these circumstances, who knows. I don't believe under normal circumstances would consorting with a medium conjur an actual spirit of a dead person. But in this case the lord allowed Samuel to appear so Saul would know he was condemned and why. It was the lords way of saying "I know what you're doing, and I am not pleased".
I thought that even the witch herself was surprised by who she conjured... He asked her to call Samuel, and she cried out. I don't think she was surprised Saul had come to her. I think she was surprised she had really conjured Samuel. JMO
__________________
What we make of the Bible will never be as great a thing as what the Bible will - if we let it - make of us.~Rich Mullins
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.~Galileo Galilei
The scriptures forbid consulting mediums. It does not forbid speaking to the dead. Jesus did it. He spoke to Elijah and Moses.
So if God brings Samuel up for one final rebuke, what's the problem?
Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer Deu 18:11 or a charmer or a medium or a wizard or a necromancer, Deu 18:12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
I've heard many people claim that it wasn't really Samuel -even though the story says nothing to make the reader it was anyone but.
I have no problem with God using a witch to contact Samuel since Saul was seeking him.... In some ways it is no different then Moses being commanded to speak to the rock, in which case he hits it instead, but God still honors it even though He was disobeyed in the process.
The scriptures forbid consulting mediums. It does not forbid speaking to the dead. Jesus did it. He spoke to Elijah and Moses.
So if God brings Samuel up for one final rebuke, what's the problem?
Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer Deu 18:11 or a charmer or a medium or a wizard or a necromancer, Deu 18:12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.
Don't you think Jesus doing it is different than a Witch doing it?
Let's just say we break out the Ouija Board at my house tonight and I bring back Moses or Bro Urshan. I go to Church on Sunday and tell everyone what happened, good or bad. The point is, a message was given by a forbidden practice.
On the other hand, I'm in prayer at Church and someone from the past appears and gives me a "Word", good or bad.
I guess the real contrast in this would be, "Go to the Devil, he'll call up the dead by something that is forbidden by God, and you'll hear what "Thus Saith the Lord".
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