Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro's view on Zionism

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

True Torah Jews is opposed to the passage of the “Anti-Semitism Awareness Act” because it mistakenly enmeshes and obscures the two separate and distinct concepts of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. Jews adhere to no single nationality, race, or culture. They come in all colors and hues, and hail from every place on earth. What they do share is a common religion. And, while the Zionists want to change that, TTJ wishes to disassociate from the anti-Semitic characterization of Jews as a separate national entity. We believe rhetoric on Israel should never be deemed ‘pro or anti Jewish’ as we have absolutely no connection to the State of Israel.


http://www.truetorahjews.org/

Thank you for finding this.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You know I wonder if you even watched the video now. Because he said nothing about not caring about people. His main point was the differences between Judaism and political Zionism. Which logically are totally two different things. Another thing, he spoke about his loyalty to this country. One thing you have to remember, if someone was Japanese during WWII and Hirohito said that all Japanese were loyal to him in all countries where they lived, they would have problems. Same with Germany, and if Hitler told the American people that all Germans were to be loyal to him and that he was their emissary. While Netanyahu didn't claim all Jews were loyal to him, he did say that he was their emissary. Unless you don't know what the word emissary means, it means diplomatic representative. Benjamin Netanyahu isn't any American, Russian, Polish, African, Slovakian, Italian, or Greek Jew's diplomatic representative. But, what rights is any foreign leader going to stand for an citizen in another country? If you followed the video you would of found out that Abe Foxman even disapproved of Benjamin Netanyahu's speech. Did you happen to catch where the Rabbi mentioned if the prime minister of Bulgaria was to say that he was to speak on the behalf of all the Jews everywhere? It would be considered preposterous. Anti-Semitism? Benjamin Netanyahu doesn't have to worry about Antisemitism, in the U.S. or in Wakanda. Want to know why? Because he can't do a thing about it. Only the voted in officials of those countries can do anything to stop it. Period. That's all that the Rabbi was trying to relay. That being a Jew is based on religion, not on your politics, or a country.

Yes, I did listen to it. You are right that Netanyahu didn't say that all Jews were loyal to him. When he came to Washington to speak he said that he came as an Emissary to ALL the JEWISH CITIZENS of Israel. “I am greatly concerned about the security of the citizens of Israel and I will do what is necessary in order to ensure our future." He is in essence saying that he is working to secure the future of Israel for all Jews, everywhere. Many Jewish people who not living there, would like to have Israel safe and secure at such a time as they would like to visit or return. I would like for it to be safe in the event I ever get to visit.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Thank you for finding this.

Right, because this was interesting:

"...as we have absolutely no connection to the State of Israel."

Good luck with that.

[Amanah]

It is the Orthodox Jewish opinion

WHY ORTHODOX JEWS ARE OPPOSED TO A ZIONIST STATE

First some introductions:

1) What is "The People of Israel" ?

• The People of Israel have existed for thousands of years.
• They have their own particular, essential nature.
• The Torah is the source of their essential nature.
• Without Torah and Faith there is no People of Israel.
• Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the People of Israel.
• The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine Service.
• Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.


2) What is Zionism?

•Zionism is a relatively new thing.
•It has only existed for a century.
•Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the People of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character - a materialistic worldly nation.
•Their misfortune is lack of what other nations possess, i.e. a state and army.
•Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.
•This is clearly spelled out in the circles of Zionist thought, and among the leaders of the Zionist State, that through changing the nature and character of the People of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation" -- a state and an army.

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Amanah

It is the Orthodox Jewish opinion


http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm

From your article: "The only time that the People of Israel were permitted to have a state was two thousand years ago when the glory of the creator was upon us, and likewise in the future when the glory of the creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him, then He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on Divine Service."

They already come from a false perception, as the "Creator" has already come and they have denied him. Saying they have no part of Israel, they should think again. Their Orthodoxy ties them to Israel whether they like it or not.

[Amanah]

PO, you are right that their perception is false.

But I can't fault them for wanted to identify with the US and with the tenants of their faith rather then with a secular state that defines being Jewish as cultural and not a religion.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Yes, I did listen to it. You are right that Netanyahu didn't say that all Jews were loyal to him. When he came to Washington to speak he said that he came as an Emissary to ALL the JEWISH CITIZENS of Israel. “I am greatly concerned about the security of the citizens of Israel and I will do what is necessary in order to ensure our future." He is in essence saying that he is working to secure the future of Israel for all Jews, everywhere. Many Jewish people who not living there, would like to have Israel safe and secure at such a time as they would like to visit or return. I would like for it to be safe in the event I ever get to visit.

That's fine, but it ends with all Jewish CITIZENS in Israel. Netanyahu doesn't speak for any other Jew on the planet. He isn't keeping Israel safe for Jews in South Africa or Miami Beach. Not every Jew is a Zionist, and not every Jew is an Atheist. Nor should any Jew feel any obligation to any other country than the one they are a citizen. Just like any Mexican who was born here, or ny Mexican who has become a citizen of this country. Enrique Peña Nieto has no obligation to them, nor do they as citizens of the United States have any obligation to him. It would be utter lunacy for my wife, brother in law, mother in law, and daughters to believe they held obligations to Greece, and Alexis Tsipras. Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro's main point as YOU know, wasn't against support of Israel, or not caring about Israel. That is found NO WHERE in his words in that video. His main point, is that Jewishness comes from a religion, which is called Judaism. It contains all colors, all races, all people from all corners of the planet. It isn't a race.Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro knows this, because he is a Jewish Torah/Talmud scholar. Zionism on the other hand was created to be a political entity. Which is like being a republican or democrat, or socialist, or libertarian. You yourself are a Zionist, but you hold its tenets not as an Israeli, or secular Jew, but as a Christain, You find yourself defending a foreign country you yourself are not a citizen. You are so much a Zionist that any criticism of the Zionist state will automatically spring you into action. Yet, Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro didn't even touch the Christian Zionists of the United States. He was merely showing the difference between real Jews who are logically those who accept Torah as God's written word, and Zionists who are statists and in no way need to be religious to call themselves Jews. Please PO, I hope you aren't offended by me noting that you are a Zionist. If you aren't offended fine, but if you are I mean no offense to you.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

From your article: "The only time that the People of Israel were permitted to have a state was two thousand years ago when the glory of the creator was upon us, and likewise in the future when the glory of the creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him, then He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on Divine Service."

They already come from a false perception, as the "Creator" has already come and they have denied him. Saying they have no part of Israel, they should think again. Their Orthodoxy ties them to Israel whether they like it or not.

Doesn't look as if you understand Ultra Orthodox Judaism. Also what you as a Christian see them as, isn't how they see themselves. Rabbinical Judaism is has as many thoughts and schisms as any other religion. Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro is an Ultra Orthodox Rabbinical Jewish Rabbi. The other schools of thought within Judaism would be like what you believe and Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Actually you may be shocked that a huge number of leading Rabbinical scholars in the beginning of Zionism opposed it. It is like saying to be a Christian all you needed was a mother who was Christian and therefore made you Christian. You also didn't need to believe in the Bible, or Jesus Christ, or any of the Apostles. Yet, you were still a Christian. Texas would now be the country of Christians. Every child male and female when they came of age needed to join the "secular" Christian army, to defend the borders of Texas. Their Orthodoxy doesn't tie them to Israel as a state run by a secular government. Where you see that in the Bible?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

That's fine, but it ends with all Jewish CITIZENS in Israel. Netanyahu doesn't speak for any other Jew on the planet. He isn't keeping Israel safe for Jews in South Africa or Miami Beach. Not every Jew is a Zionist, and not every Jew is an Atheist. Nor should any Jew feel any obligation to any other country than the one they are a citizen. Just like any Mexican who was born here, or ny Mexican who has become a citizen of this country. Enrique Peña Nieto has no obligation to them, nor do they as citizens of the United States have any obligation to him. It would be utter lunacy for my wife, brother in law, mother in law, and daughters to believe they held obligations to Greece, and Alexis Tsipras. Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro's main point as YOU know, wasn't against support of Israel, or not caring about Israel. That is found NO WHERE in his words in that video. His main point, is that Jewishness comes from a religion, which is called Judaism. It contains all colors, all races, all people from all corners of the planet. It isn't a race.Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro knows this, because he is a Jewish Torah/Talmud scholar. Zionism on the other hand was created to be a political entity. Which is like being a republican or democrat, or socialist, or libertarian. You yourself are a Zionist, but you hold its tenets not as an Israeli, or secular Jew, but as a Christain, You find yourself defending a foreign country you yourself are not a citizen. You are so much a Zionist that any criticism of the Zionist state will automatically spring you into action. Yet, Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro didn't even touch the Christian Zionists of the United States. He was merely showing the difference between real Jews who are logically those who accept Torah as God's written word, and Zionists who are statists and in no way need to be religious to call themselves Jews. Please PO, I hope you aren't offended by me noting that you are a Zionist. If you aren't offended fine, but if you are I mean no offense to you.

I'm not offended and I don't view myself as a Zionist. I view myself as someone who sees any Jew rejecting Christ not knowing anything other than the Law. So, if they want to forget about Israel fine. Their Torah ties them to Israel whether they like it or not. The only thing an Ultra Orthodox or Orthodox Jew could teach me is probably a little more about Deuteronomy. lol

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Doesn't look as if you understand Ultra Orthodox Judaism. Also what you as a Christian see them as, isn't how they see themselves. Rabbinical Judaism is has as many thoughts and schisms as any other religion. Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro is an Ultra Orthodox Rabbinical Jewish Rabbi. The other schools of thought within Judaism would be like what you believe and Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Actually you may be shocked that a huge number of leading Rabbinical scholars in the beginning of Zionism opposed it. It is like saying to be a Christian all you needed was a mother who was Christian and therefore made you Christian. You also didn't need to believe in the Bible, or Jesus Christ, or any of the Apostles. Yet, you were still a Christian. Texas would now be the country of Christians. Every child male and female when they came of age needed to join the "secular" Christian army, to defend the borders of Texas. Their Orthodoxy doesn't tie them to Israel as a state run by a secular government. Where you see that in the Bible?

They stated that "we have absolutely no connection to the State of Israel." That is not true.