The Development of the Trinity

[seekerman]

Why does Jesus need to be God to preexist?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Why does Jesus need to be God to preexist?

I didn't say He did. I said if Jesus is God then He DID pre-exist.

[seekerman]

Ok.

It was just a general question.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Im concerned this man is publishing a Oneness book that rejects the Deity of Jesus Christ..

Why do you think he might be doing that?

I haven't read his book, but the gist of his post seems to be how trinitarians and Oneness-ians disagree on HOW Jesus pre-existed: either as the second person of a trinity, or as God himself.

I would also say we are often careless in our use of terms which can lead to misunderstandings.

'Christ pre-existed'. Technically, that is not correct, since CHRIST means MESSIAH, and the prophesied Son of David did not exist until he was conceived.

God became Messiah, in otherwords. So when we say 'Jesus pre-existed' or 'christ pre-existed' WE generally understand what we are trying to say but others may not. Do we mean THE MAN pre-existed? Do we mean a Divine Person OTHER THAN THE FATHER pre-existed? etc.

Hence the need to either hold a series of ecumenical councils to get the explanations down as specific as possible... or on the other hand to just stick with biblical terms/phrases for biblical concepts and by-pass all the debate about 'hypostases' and 'essences' and 'the nature of being - is it one, or many?' and so on so forth.

Of course, we could all just join in a rousing chorus of Trinity Shminity and be done with it, eh?

[Michael The Disciple]

'Christ pre-existed'. Technically, that is not correct, since CHRIST means MESSIAH, and the prophesied Son of David did not exist until he was conceived.

And yet Paul says:

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them : and that Rock was Christ. 1 Cor. 10:4

Sometimes we define narrow. Other times we define broad. Christ was the rock with the Israelites.

The rock was defined by Moses and the prophets.

3 Because I will publish the name of YHWH: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. 5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation. 6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? Duet. 32:4-6

If Christ was the rock he was YHWH, God, our Father.

Thats a simple way to prove Yeshua is THE GOD of the OT. Our Father.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Why do you think he might be doing that?

I haven't read his book, but the gist of his post seems to be how trinitarians and Oneness-ians disagree on HOW Jesus pre-existed: either as the second person of a trinity, or as God himself.

I would also say we are often careless in our use of terms which can lead to misunderstandings.

'Christ pre-existed'. Technically, that is not correct, since CHRIST means MESSIAH, and the prophesied Son of David did not exist until he was conceived.

God became Messiah, in otherwords. So when we say 'Jesus pre-existed' or 'christ pre-existed' WE generally understand what we are trying to say but others may not. Do we mean THE MAN pre-existed? Do we mean a Divine Person OTHER THAN THE FATHER pre-existed? etc.

Hence the need to either hold a series of ecumenical councils to get the explanations down as specific as possible... or on the other hand to just stick with biblical terms/phrases for biblical concepts and by-pass all the debate about 'hypostases' and 'essences' and 'the nature of being - is it one, or many?' and so on so forth.

Of course, we could all just join in a rousing chorus of Trinity Shminity and be done with it, eh?

He said "We in the OP have not had a solid answer of how the preexistence of Christ and related issues evolved."

Christ and Jesus are not two different persons..if they were then sure you can say Jesus pre-existed but Christ did not.

If God became Messiah then Messiah is God and God has always existed. Messiah therefore always existed AS God.

[Michael The Disciple]

I dont see anywhere the author denies the deity of Yeshua. He said the Oneness movement does not have a clear understanding of the pre existence. I totally agree. The issue of the LOGOS is a weak link in an otherwise solid iron theology in the Oneness movement.

He may mean something else? Hopefully he will come back and discuss and was not merely trying to sell his book.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I dont see anywhere the author denies the deity of Yeshua.

How can Jesus NOT pre-exist and yet be God?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

And yet Paul says:

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them : and that Rock was Christ. 1 Cor. 10:4

Sometimes we define narrow. Other times we define broad. Christ was the rock with the Israelites.

The rock was defined by Moses and the prophets.

3 Because I will publish the name of YHWH: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. 5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation. 6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? Duet. 32:4-6

If Christ was the rock he was YHWH, God, our Father.

Thats a simple way to prove Yeshua is THE GOD of the OT. Our Father.

Yes, Paul is saying 'He whom ye know as Christ, that Man from Galilee, that Messiah, is the ROCK of whom Moses spake, and who gave living water to Israel out of the earthly rock. In other words, this man Jesus, the Messiah, is YHVH GOD.'

Agreed.

A great mystery, indeed.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

He said "We in the OP have not had a solid answer of how the preexistence of Christ and related issues evolved."

Christ and Jesus are not two different persons..if they were then sure you can say Jesus pre-existed but Christ did not.

If God became Messiah then Messiah is God and God has always existed. Messiah therefore always existed AS God.

Could we be more specific and say 'God always existed as God and then in a point in time became Messiah?'

If God became Messiah... then Messiah AS SUCH did not exist until that point. HE WHO IS THE MESSIAH was (and is) also GOD ETERNAL.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? lol

Honestly, I don't know what the guy believes, as I haven't read his book. I suspect however he is talking about 'the pre-existent second person of a triune godhead' being an evolved doctrine.

'Christology in the Making' is probably the best book out there on that particular subject, by the way.