I think they do need tAlk after the evidence is presented. I am sure there are things to work through, and even ask the court to clarify some of the presentations/evidence.
I understand. But couldn't they do this on an individual basis. I'm just wondering if there is not something inherently wrong with having members of a jury of your peers hear all the evidence and arguments, reach an individual conviction as to guilt or innocence, then have that changed over the course of days of stalemate and pressure. I'm wondering if at the very least there needs to be a cap on deliberations (measured in hours as opposed to days) just to insure that all the evidence is understood and considered but not long enough to have personal convictions changed out of duress, pressure, frustration, weakness, or any other thing that can arise in days of being locked into a room. At some point it seems it goes from deliberation to negotiation.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
I served as the jury foreman on a murder trial a few years ago. I found the deliberation process worked well.
When we were sent to deliberate my fellow jurors elected me the foreman (I think based on some leadership I showed in getting the bailiff to contact the judge about something inappropriate dealing with the defense team). My first action was to suggest that we take a blind vote to see where we were at on our thoughts about the verdict.
Our choices were guilty, not guilty, or guilty of manslaughter as an alternative to the murder charge. I asked a school teacher on the jury to act as the secretary. We each wrote our choice of the three on slips of paper and I gathered them all and gave them to our secretary to count.
After the first eight or so were "guilty" I thought this was going to be easy. However when all 12 votes were counted we had 10 guilty's and 2 not guilty. Interestingly nobody voted for manslaughter.
I said that I felt we should review the testimony and evidence and talk about it then vote again. While we were preparing to do that a business woman on the jury came to me and quietly said that she was almost certain the two not guilty's were a white retired guy and an 18 year old pregnant Hispanic girl. She said for me to continue the review and that she would talk to the retired guy as we did.
It took us around 4 hours to read the judges instructions, take that first vote, review the testimony and evidence, then vote again. On our second vote we were unanimous with 12 guilty votes.
I am Mr. Conservative. A real law and order guy but I have to tell you it was very emotional for me as the jury foreman to have to be the one to tell the judge, the courtroom, and especially the defendant (a 54 or 56 year old woman) that we had found the defendant guilty. I knew that because of her age she was going to spend the rest of her productive live in jail. However I was at peace because the verdict was correct and justice was served.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
Very cool CC1. So how much did you have to pay the two to change their votes??
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Very cool CC1. So how much did you have to pay the two to change their votes??
For the old guy two breakfast coupons at Denny's and for the pregnant Hispanic girl Salsa lessons.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
I do believe the only times the deliberation system breaks down is when you have 4 or more women on the jury who watch Oprah and the defendant is a stud.
I have been on a jury 3 times. The grand jury that is considering an indictment is allowed to ask questions of the attorneys, but during the actual trial, the jury is not allowed to ask questions. I think that needs to change. Sometimes all the available evidence is not presented to the jury. Also the jury can decide that a law is wrong but the attorney for the prosecution will not tell you that.
I served as the jury foreman on a murder trial a few years ago. I found the deliberation process worked well.
When we were sent to deliberate my fellow jurors elected me the foreman (I think based on some leadership I showed in getting the bailiff to contact the judge about something inappropriate dealing with the defense team). My first action was to suggest that we take a blind vote to see where we were at on our thoughts about the verdict.
Our choices were guilty, not guilty, or guilty of manslaughter as an alternative to the murder charge. I asked a school teacher on the jury to act as the secretary. We each wrote our choice of the three on slips of paper and I gathered them all and gave them to our secretary to count.
After the first eight or so were "guilty" I thought this was going to be easy. However when all 12 votes were counted we had 10 guilty's and 2 not guilty. Interestingly nobody voted for manslaughter.
I said that I felt we should review the testimony and evidence and talk about it then vote again. While we were preparing to do that a business woman on the jury came to me and quietly said that she was almost certain the two not guilty's were a white retired guy and an 18 year old pregnant Hispanic girl. She said for me to continue the review and that she would talk to the retired guy as we did.
It took us around 4 hours to read the judges instructions, take that first vote, review the testimony and evidence, then vote again. On our second vote we were unanimous with 12 guilty votes.
I am Mr. Conservative. A real law and order guy but I have to tell you it was very emotional for me as the jury foreman to have to be the one to tell the judge, the courtroom, and especially the defendant (a 54 or 56 year old woman) that we had found the defendant guilty. I knew that because of her age she was going to spend the rest of her productive live in jail. However I was at peace because the verdict was correct and justice was served.
That is interesting. I can imagine how weighty of a decision that is. I think 4 hours is pretty reasonable.
Do you think that if the jury was sequestered and deliberating for 4 days as opposed to 4 hours, some people might be willing to change their vote based on pressure or frustration?
Do you feel like the lady "working on" the retired guy is the best thing for justice?
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
That is interesting. I can imagine how weighty of a decision that is. I think 4 hours is pretty reasonable.
Do you think that if the jury was sequestered and deliberating for 4 days as opposed to 4 hours, some people might be willing to change their vote based on pressure or frustration?
Do you feel like the lady "working on" the retired guy is the best thing for justice?
Tstew,
In my case the verdict was clear. There were two conservatives on the jury, myself and the retired guy. After the verdict they brought the DA prosecuting the case and the defense attorney in the jury room and told us we could now ask any questions we wished we could have asked during the trial. My first question was to the defense attorney and I asked why he allowed two men who identified ourselves as being conservative to be on the jury. His response was that his client was a 56 year old white woman accused of killing a 20something year old foreigner (Lebanese) and that the thought was that no white male conservative would want to send a 56 year old white woman to jail for killing some foreigner! I thought that was absurd but it actually was the case for the old retired guy I think until he reconsidered and must have known he was ignoring reality. I think the 18 year old Hispanic girl was just naive and sweet and probably hated to send anybody to jail.
So yes I think the sharp businesswoman talking to the old guy was a very good thing as he was clearly not making a judgment based on the evidence or logic.
I do agree with you that it is possible for persons on a jury that is deliberating for days to get frustrated and change their vote to bring things to a closure. However I bet that is very rare as most people are willing to contend for their position and won't change it unless they are convinced they are wrong.
I think the jury system has worked well for a very long time. Not only in the USA but in other countries before ours. I think with all of its flaws it is still much more likely to produce justice than a system where Judges decide cases. The O.J. Simpson trial was a black eye on the jury system as it became a matter of black folks / a minority jury showing "the man" up rather than about real justice but those instances are few and far between.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
j/k
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