wasn't being a proponent of it, was just putting it out for commentary since one of our new members claims to have seven spirits in him, or something to that effect.
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All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. ~Tolkien
aquila, you make interesting points. i am not disagreeing with you just trying to get my understanding correct. jesus said evil thoughts come from the heart. there is another verse that says the holy spirit is poured into our hearts. i've talked with blume about whether our carnal nature is soul or spirit. i don't see how being one spirit with the lord is compatible with evil thoughts from the heart if heart and spirit is synonymous, your interpretation of i cor 6:17 is tantalizing for believers in mystical union with god, but i believe in communion between person and holy spirit, not sure what to make of that verse or how that affects my views.
I understand DM. I’m just sharing my understanding.
First, I think it’s important to understand that the term “heart” is a euphemism. The “heart” is nothing but the organ that pumps blood in the circulatory system. It’s muscle. Flesh. When one speaks of the “heart” as you are speaking of it, it is a euphemism for the seat of one’s thoughts and emotions. In OT times the term wouldn’t be “heart”… it would be “bowels”. I believe that theologically speaking the seat of our thoughts and emotions is the soul. This is because of the Greek word “psuche” (origin of “psyche”). In Hebrew understanding anything that appears capable of thought or emotion is a “soulish” creature. Man and various beasts are “living souls” because of the ability, or the limited ability, to think and to feel emotion. Fish are not “soulish” creatures, dolphins are. Trees are not “soulish” creatures, apes are. The soul (psuche) is therefore what we today would call the psyche…the mind. Since the soul is the seat of all thought and emotion (the psyche) when one speaks of the “heart”…they are using a euphemism for the “soul”. We speak of those whose hearts are one as being “soul mates”. So evil thoughts come from the soul. The Holy Spirit is poured into our souls…writing the law of God and His righteous desires upon our hearts (our souls).
The soul is distinct from the spirit. The word “spirit” is translated from the Greek word “pneuma”. This means “breath”. But it isn’t speaking so much about the oxygen in our lungs. This is speaking about the very essence of life that ebbs and flows throughout our being. What makes us “alive”. It is the core of our very being. It is the “flame of life”, the “breath of life”, the “essence of life”, and the “life force” of man. If man were a computer the bodies would be hardware, the souls would be our software, and our spirits would be electricity. But please understand that the spirit isn’t just “energy” per se. It’s living. And from it flows our dispositions. Now corrupted by sin and severed from God, wickedness flows from the spirit throughout our being. I could elaborate, but we might cover these thoughts better if I move on with addressing your post.
Now, as for carnal nature... The nature of a thing is the expression of its essence. When man was first created man’s body wasn’t united with God, its physical. Man’s mind wasn’t separated from God, man has always been able to think, reason, and feel with distinction from God. However…man’s “spirit” was in spiritual union with the very Spirit of God. Eternal life, blessing, and vitality flowed through the very living essence of man into his entire being. When man fell, this spiritual union was severed. The very flame of life, spirit, breath, or living essence of man (the spirit) was severed from God’s own Spirit. This fall began a domino effect that rippled throughout man’s entire nature. Now man’s spirit was carnal, natural, of the earth, and separated from God. So a man’s very life force is corrupt. This affected man’s mind…or the soul. Man began to think with carnal logic and reasoning. The body, being the physical vehicle of the soul, became a carnal thing subject to decay and began to break down. Aging, sickness, and death are the norm for all of us now. The carnal nature of our entire being is exhibited in this way:
Body: Physical urges, yearnings, and needs that cry out to be fulfilled in spite of God’s will.
Soul: Thoughts, desires, reasoning, philosophies, and attitudes that happen to be contrary to God’s nature.
Spirit: No sense of God, no God consciousness.
So, the “carnal nature” isn’t necessarily soul or spirit… it is found in both. In fact, the “carnal nature” is found in every aspect of man.
When a man receives the Holy Ghost, I believe that the human spirit is once more united with God. Now the human spirit has a new nature, the very nature of God, flowing through it once more. This is known theologically as Regeneration. The problem is that we are not born this way. We are born alienated from God and live lives of sin before receiving the Holy Ghost. Though one might have received the Holy Ghost and be Regenerated in their spirit… the mind (or soul) still has desires and has reasonings that are aimed at pleasing the flesh (this is known as the “carnal mind”). So one might now be one with God through the Holy Ghost after the altar service… but they return home that night often still desiring those things which pleased the flesh that they confessed and repented of. The nature of their spirit is contrary to this carnality. So when they sin again…they feel guilt and shame. Their new nature in their spirit is agitated by their behaviors. If sin is continued emotional turmoil, depression, despair, and even serious psychological conditions may result. They know that it’s wrong, and they can feel that it’s wrong via the spirit… but their carnal mind still desires the sin. They must undergo the “renewing of their mind” through the Word of God. They must immerse themselves in the study and meditation of the Bible. They must seek to know Jesus more intimately. They must hear Godly preaching and teaching. Slowly this will “renew” (or “reprogram”) the mind (soul) to think in paradigms that reflect God’s will. This is known as taking on the “mind of Christ”. Conviction against certain sinful behaviors will grow. Then breakthroughs with regards to their struggle with sin begin to take place as they increasingly come under the lordship of Jesus. This is known as Sanctification. And it is often a lifelong process of growing and maintaining.
So through union with the Spirit of God through the baptism of the Holy Ghost we experience spiritual Regeneration.
Through the renewing of our minds by the Word of God, our souls are constantly brought into conformity to the likeness of Christ. This is Sanctification of the soul.
One day, even our bodies will experience a renewal. This will be found in the resurrection. Our bodies will be raised incorruptible. This is theologically known as Glorification.
Man’s entire being will be redeemed. The spirit will be once more in union with God, the soul once more reflecting the mind of God, and even the body living in eternal health and vitality. We will be exactly like Jesus. We will be men and women who are one with God, conformed into the very image of Jesus Christ.
P.S.
As for having communion vs. union with the Holy Ghost... can one have true union with the Spirit without communion? Of course not. There is no sweeter communion with the Holy Ghost than when one experiences their oneness with God through Christ Jesus. You aren't just a believer with God living inside you... you have become a living extention of God... a son or daughter of God. The Mighty God in Christ Jesus is the vine... and you are a branch.
Mar 5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
I dunno though, the way this board interprets scripture, "many" may mean "one" depending on what the person wishes for the passage to say. Eisegesis of scripture is running rampant.
Quit being a grudge holding crybaby and get over it already. Dragging your unhappiness from thread to thread makes you a bummer to everybody.
wasn't being a proponent of it, was just putting it out for commentary since one of our new members claims to have seven spirits in him, or something to that effect.
I've always had those "seven spirits" in the Bible preached as the seven churches. I do see how this might parallel aspects of an individual walk.
I think we have only a partial grasp of what "spirit" even means, or at least we should acknowledge that the word "spirit" is used in different ways by people.
I've usually found that after about 10 pages of semantics discussions, you usually end up agreeing in some form or another. Someone can say they have the seven spirits of God, but you have already pointed out that the tongue can say what the spirit has in fact denied.
aquila, thanks for sharing your thoughts. let me share how i concluded that heart and spirit are synonymous.
god is spirit. god is love. love is emotion. emotion is heart. so i concluded that heart is spirit. not sure if you follow that reasoning, but i struggled with heart being soul or spirit.
when i read that the hg is poured into our hearts. i thought our makeup as being that of the tabernacle where body soul and spirit correspond to outer court, inner court and holy of holies. if hg is poured into our hearts, i thought that heart corresponds to holy of holies, ie our spirit.
those are the 2 reasons i thought heart corresponds to spirit, but it may very well correspond to soul, i am not concrete on the matter.
i still think that our mind is distinct from our emotion. the only way to explain that in your view is to say there are 2 parts to the soul and that our spirits are a third part. how would we feel or distinguish our spirits within us?
just by self examining our own makeup, i can only distinguish thought and emotion, so i link them to soul and spirit. the hg may be one with my spirit but i cannot discern that, i only feel the hg when i commune with the person of jesus christ. just some extra thoughts. that verse in 1 cor is great for mystical believers. i'm reading a book on deification.
I see human beings as more interconnected then this, our bodies produce chemicals that create emotions within us, ie, endorphins
Our Spirit, in contact with God's Spirit creates emotions within us.
If it is true that we can choose to be happy, then thought and emotion are linked.
The Bible says as a man thinketh in his heart so it he, we are the results of our thoughts.
I think it's hard to define because it is not simplistic.
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All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. ~Tolkien
aquila, thanks for sharing your thoughts. let me share how i concluded that heart and spirit are synonymous.
god is spirit. god is love. love is emotion. emotion is heart. so i concluded that heart is spirit. not sure if you follow that reasoning, but i struggled with heart being soul or spirit.
when i read that the hg is poured into our hearts. i thought our makeup as being that of the tabernacle where body soul and spirit correspond to outer court, inner court and holy of holies. if hg is poured into our hearts, i thought that heart corresponds to holy of holies, ie our spirit.
those are the 2 reasons i thought heart corresponds to spirit, but it may very well correspond to soul, i am not concrete on the matter.
i still think that our mind is distinct from our emotion. the only way to explain that in your view is to say there are 2 parts to the soul and that our spirits are a third part. how would we feel or distinguish our spirits within us?
just by self examining our own makeup, i can only distinguish thought and emotion, so i link them to soul and spirit. the hg may be one with my spirit but i cannot discern that, i only feel the hg when i commune with the person of jesus christ. just some extra thoughts. that verse in 1 cor is great for mystical believers. i'm reading a book on deification.
From my perspective, and this is only my understanding, your post is kind of muddled up with using the term “heart” as though it is a theological term. Your thoughts are probably more clear on the matter than my understanding of what you wrote. But that’s normal, because I’m not in your head. Lol But from the outside it sounds like you’re taking a euphemism too far. For example, what if I wrote….
”I know that Jesus calls us to anoint our eyes with eye salve so that we might see. Clearly seeing isn’t hearing…so logically it connects more with the emotions than with our thoughts, as hearing would. Therefore our spirits are the source of feeling and emotion. Our eyes are our spirit.”
Theologically speaking there are a few things right with the above statement and a few things wrong with the above statement. Nevertheless, I’ve plucked the term “eyes” (as you have “heart”) from a text and sought to define it by laterally equating it with a distinct concept.
When seeking to define the terms body, soul, and spirit we do best by sticking with the context of a verse, and the etymology of the terms used. For example, soul in Greek is “psuche”. It is the word from which we get our English word “psyche”. What is the term “psuche” (or “psyche”) used to denote? Here’s a definition from Merriam Webster’s Dictionary:
psy•che
noun \ˈsī-kē\
Definition of PSYCHE
1
capitalized: a princess loved by Cupid
2
[Greek psychē] a: soul, personality <the nation's consumer psyche— D. J. Kevles> b: mind 2
Okay, one’s psyche (or psuche) is one’s mind. What is a mind?
1mind
noun \ˈmīnd\
Definition of MIND
1
: recollection, memory <keep that in mind> <time out of mind>
2
a: the element or complex of elements in an individual that feels, perceives, thinks, wills, and especially reasons b: the conscious mental events and capabilities in an organism c: the organized conscious and unconscious adaptive mental activity of an organism
3
: intention, desire <I changed my mind>
4
: the normal or healthy condition of the mental faculties
5
: opinion, view
6
: disposition, mood
7
a: a person or group embodying mental qualities <the public mind> b: intellectual ability
8
capitalizedChristian Science: god 1b
9
: a conscious substratum or factor in the universe
10
: attention <pay him no mind>
So, let’s take definition #2:
a: the element or complex of elements in an individual that feels, perceives, thinks, wills, and especially reasons b: the conscious mental events and capabilities in an organism c: the organized conscious and unconscious adaptive mental activity of an organism
I see that feelings and emotions are part of the psyche (or psuche), the “soul”.
But what about “spirit”. The word “spirit” is pneuma in the Greek. It means “breath”. How do we define “breath”?
breath
noun \ˈbreth\
Definition of BREATH
1
a: air filled with a fragrance or odor b: a slight indication : suggestion <the faintest breath of scandal>
2
a: the faculty of breathing <recovering his breath after the race> b: an act of breathing <fought to the last breath> c: opportunity or time to breathe : respite
3
: a slight breeze
4
a: air inhaled and exhaled in breathing <bad breath> b: something (as moisture on a cold surface) produced by breath or breathing c: inhalation
5
: a spoken sound : utterance
6
: spirit, animation
Is a man’s “spirit” literally “air”? Let’s see how “spirit” itself is defined:
1spir•it
noun \ˈspir-ət\
Definition of SPIRIT
1
: an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms
2
: a supernatural being or essence: as acapitalized: holy spirit b: soul 2a c: an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically: ghost 2 d: a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being
3
: temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated <in high spirits>
4
: the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person
5
a: the activating or essential principle influencing a person <acted in a spirit of helpfulness> b: an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind : mood
6
a: a special attitude or frame of mind <the money-making spirit was for a time driven back — J. A. Froude> b: the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something <undertaken in a spirit of fun>
7
: a lively or brisk quality in a person or a person's actions
8
: a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature
9
: a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness <denied the charge with spirit>
10
a: distillate 1: as (1): the liquid containing ethanol and water that is distilled from an alcoholic liquid or mash —often used in plural (2): any of various volatile liquids obtained by distillation or cracking (as of petroleum, shale, or wood) —often used in plural b: a usually volatile organic solvent (as an alcohol, ester, or hydrocarbon)
11
a: prevailing tone or tendency <spirit of the age> b: general intent or real meaning <spirit of the law>
12
: an alcoholic solution of a volatile substance <spirit of camphor>
13
: enthusiastic loyalty <school spirit>
14
capitalizedChristian Science: god 1b
Here we have a lot of different directions we could go in. Is “reason” seated in the soul or the spirit? Because definition 4 might have us thinking with either one. Definition 2 equates spirit with soul and defines “spirit” beings. Hmmm… I need something basic. Something that would denote what the ancients might have meant about “breath”… because “breath” doesn’t think or feel. I like definition #1:
: an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms
If I take this it is closest to the notion of breath. It’s the very essence of life, or life-force, of a living thing.
Now, as far as emotion. You bring up some very good points. Emotions might originate from the spirit. But I couldn’t say that emotions are strictly the realm of the spirit, because that would fragment the psyche (soul). Could it be that emotion emanates from the spirit, and is realized and experienced in the soul? Perhaps this is the binding element of the two. Perhaps this is why someone can know something with their faculties of reason…but their feelings be found to oppose them. For example, the Captain of a ship might “know” the facts and therefore reason that a certain course of action is called for based on known facts…BUT…his “gut” is telling him to do something else and in the end he might discover that by following his “gut” he saved his ship and his crew. But…those “feelings” or “emotions” that emanate from the spirit had to be experienced. They had to be realized or rationalized to be experienced. This is the realm of the soul or “psyche”. What if one’s “heart” is the sum total of the two? The very soul and spirit of a man? For example, I read:
[INDENT]Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.[/QUOTE]
Notice the writer of Hebrews (believed by many to be Paul) speaks of God’s Word being able to divide between soul and spirit. Then goes on to elaborate on the “thoughts and intents”… of the “heart”. So the “heart” has both thoughts and intents”. If the soul is the seat of the intellect, or mind… and the spirit is the originator of emotion, feelings, intentions… could a man’s soul and spirit together be his “heart”?
I honestly don’t know for sure. But it is fascinating. lol
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