Big Brother's Syndrome: They Shall Know You By ...

[Sister Alvear]

true Daniel..

[DAII]

The attitude of "Big Brother" is codified in the manual .... it says as much.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

true Daniel..

It's almost confusing ... is he advocating a license over the word "United Pentecostal Church" and the word "Pentecostal" too?

It would be inane to try to support the notion over a monopoly over the word Pentecostal ... truth is there are hundreds of Oneness and Trinitarians using the term ... and the 3 things TWD says come to mind seemed to be off based. Most link Pentecostal to the experience of speaking in tongues.

Some more History ... as implications to being the "original" were made in the article:


The work in Colombia was not started by "The United Pentcostal Church International" ... it was started through the hard work of Eastern Canadian men like Wynn Stairs (whose middle name TW bears) to fund men like Charles Berchtold and Vernon Larsen in the the early 1930's ....

First, most of these Canadian churches were originally in loose fellowship with the first Oneness organization in Canada, the Apostolic Church of Pentecost (ACOP) founded by men like Frank Small and AD Urshan ... many of these men were getting uncomfortable with the eternal security doctrine held by their Western Canadian brothers and did not feel connected administratively and in fellowship with them.

It was the eastern Canadian churches funded and initially bought property in Colombia and by 1938/39 ... Stairs, Earl Jaques, Samuel Steeves, Larsen, and others had formed their own fellowship called the Full Gospel Pentecostal Church which was the original charter in which Larsen operated under ...'

Stairs church in St. Stephens was the headquarters for the shortlived FGPC.

Stairs, whose heart was missions, and who held credentials with various groups also became the Missions Secretary for the PAJC, replacing Witherspoon ... in the early 1940's before the merger.

After the US based, Pentecostal Church Incorporated and the Pentecostal Assembly of Jesus Christ merged in 1945 .... a little know merger between the FGPC, the Eastern Canadian guys ... merged with the UPCI in 1946 ...with Stairs as instrumental in this happening as he was now also the Missions director the UPCI. They became their own district within the UPCI...

There were six conditions in place for this latter merger... including that the FGPC would drop the words "Full Gospel" and adapt the word "United" ...

more in a bit .... and how this involves the Colombian work.

Source: http://books.google.com/books?id=iYV...stairs&f=false

A entire chapter on Wynn Stairs in this book!

[DAII]

As an aside ... I found this statement by Drost ringing with irony.

How many times have we spoken about the predominance the word "Apostolic" seems to have in the Anglo / American culture .... Apostolic this and Apostolic that ..

Apostolic Footwear, Apostolic Toothpaste to Apostolic Identity

Yet, Drost brings an interesting view of how this word is perceived by some in the Hispanic culture ... with roots in Catholicism:

There are various groups of the Name who use the word “Apostolic” in the name of their group. We (the IPUM, the United Pentecostal Church of Mexico, in Mexico) prefer not to use this word as a self-reference, and above all, to describe our doctrine, for the simple fact that it is one of the names of the traditional church – the Roman and Apostolic Catholic Church. They use “apostolic” in reference to papal succession – in which they are proud in tracing their history to the apostles, in particular, Peter. But they do not baptize as Peter commanded twice in the book of Acts, 2:38, 10:48.

Here he equates Apostolic with "Catholicism" and papal succession... one has to wonder what the Mexican Oneness organization .... The Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Jesus Christ ....would say to this ... founded before the UPCI in 1925.

http://www.apostolicassembly.org/aboutus_history.aspx

[UnTraditional]

They have no problem with equating themselves with United Pentecostal, but think it is wrong to call themselves Apostolic? What is next, to stop saying holy as well because other groups use the term?

[DAII]

Everything about this article seems to violate the very position paper in the manual that declares the org as "Big Brother":

Unity of Oneness Believers

Adopted by the General Conference in 1975

Inasmuch as the return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is so near at hand and the church called by His name who are the elect of Christ, known as His bride, shall all, both the dead in Christ and those who remain and are alive, be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air and shall forever be with Him, and

Inasmuch as the Lord Himself prayed that we all be one (John 17:11, 15, 20-23), and the apostle Paul emphatically told us [that] the body is one and further [that] "there should be no schism [division] in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another" (I Corinthians 12:12-13,25), and in I Corinthians 1:13 he asked, "Is Christ divided?" thus admonishing us that as Christ prayed we be one and that we are one in spirit and body, and God is not the author of confusion and division, and we have knowledge of forty, fifty, or more different factions, organizations, and/or groups who believe the same gospel; also realizing [that] we the United Pentecostal Church International are one of these and probably the largest group of this number, thus making our position the "big brother" in the family and thus laying upon us the burden and responsibility of concern about this ill which violates the prayer, plan, and purpose of our Lord and the teachings of the apostle Paul and all of heaven and the Bible, our eternal road map, and

Inasmuch as we are taught to "do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith" (Galatians 6:10) and "If any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel" (I Timothy 5:8); and be it further acknowledged that there does exist among the people of God such ills as jealousy, pride, lack of brotherly love, disrespect, undue criticism, possibly hatred, slander, and numerous other such ills which should have no place in the body of true Christians believers, and which shall have no place in heaven,

Be it resolved that the United Pentecostal Church in this conference take steps to endeavor to eliminate the division that is among brethren of like precious faith: first by humbling our hearts before God asking His forgiveness and mercy and help that we might have the right attitude toward all clean, holy Oneness people of God; [and second] by extending an open-door invitation to any who desire to meet any of our boards, officials, or ministers to discuss and consider grounds of fellowship; [and third] in the event of mutual agreement for basis of fellowship with the consent of the District Board each fellowship be approved.

Be it further resolved that we request our General Board to call a General Conference of Oneness Pentecostal ministers regardless of organization or independent persuasion for the purpose of striving together for true Christian fellowship with closer and more peaceful relationship, and if possible a reunion of oneness in body and effort toward preaching the gospel to the whole world as one united people with the same spirit [so] that we might wipe away the reproach of division and all its ills which our Lord is not pleased with and which brings due criticism from the world and religious denominations and which shall have no place in heaven; thus with one accord, one mind, and one spirit, [and] with boldness and real love, present one solid front against the devil and sin, and with the power of God and strength of unity reach arms around the world to help save the lost before the soon and certain coming of our Lord.

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by DAII

Everything about this article seems to violate the very position paper in the manual that declares the org as "Big Brother":

Unity of Oneness Believers

Adopted by the General Conference in 1975

Inasmuch as the return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is so near at hand and the church called by His name who are the elect of Christ, known as His bride, shall all, both the dead in Christ and those who remain and are alive, be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air and shall forever be with Him, and

Inasmuch as the Lord Himself prayed that we all be one (John 17:11, 15, 20-23), and the apostle Paul emphatically told us [that] the body is one and further [that] "there should be no schism [division] in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another" (I Corinthians 12:12-13,25), and in I Corinthians 1:13 he asked, "Is Christ divided?" thus admonishing us that as Christ prayed we be one and that we are one in spirit and body, and God is not the author of confusion and division, and we have knowledge of forty, fifty, or more different factions, organizations, and/or groups who believe the same gospel; also realizing [that] we the United Pentecostal Church International are one of these and probably the largest group of this number, thus making our position the "big brother" in the family and thus laying upon us the burden and responsibility of concern about this ill which violates the prayer, plan, and purpose of our Lord and the teachings of the apostle Paul and all of heaven and the Bible, our eternal road map, and

Inasmuch as we are taught to "do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith" (Galatians 6:10) and "If any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel" (I Timothy 5:8); and be it further acknowledged that there does exist among the people of God such ills as jealousy, pride, lack of brotherly love, disrespect, undue criticism, possibly hatred, slander, and numerous other such ills which should have no place in the body of true Christians believers, and which shall have no place in heaven,

Be it resolved that the United Pentecostal Church in this conference take steps to endeavor to eliminate the division that is among brethren of like precious faith: first by humbling our hearts before God asking His forgiveness and mercy and help that we might have the right attitude toward all clean, holy Oneness people of God; [and second] by extending an open-door invitation to any who desire to meet any of our boards, officials, or ministers to discuss and consider grounds of fellowship; [and third] in the event of mutual agreement for basis of fellowship with the consent of the District Board each fellowship be approved.

Be it further resolved that we request our General Board to call a General Conference of Oneness Pentecostal ministers regardless of organization or independent persuasion for the purpose of striving together for true Christian fellowship with closer and more peaceful relationship, and if possible a reunion of oneness in body and effort toward preaching the gospel to the whole world as one united people with the same spirit [so] that we might wipe away the reproach of division and all its ills which our Lord is not pleased with and which brings due criticism from the world and religious denominations and which shall have no place in heaven; thus with one accord, one mind, and one spirit, [and] with boldness and real love, present one solid front against the devil and sin, and with the power of God and strength of unity reach arms around the world to help save the lost before the soon and certain coming of our Lord.

DA were you at this conference in '75? I was and remember it well. I even spoke during the debating of the resolution. The resolution was first read in a closed preacher's meeting. During the reading, ministers wept and cried as a mighty move of God's presence entered the room.

Then, some time later, the open business meeting began and the debating and arguing began. It seemed that many forgot about the beautiful atmosphere at the original reading, and politics took over.

Memories!!

Been Thinkin

[aegsm76]

DA - as you probably know, many "pentecostal" churches in Mexico deliberately put United Pentecostal in their name, because the UPC in Mexico is a distinctive "brand" name.
This is an irritant to many of the leaders of the UPC in Mexico.
That's all I believe the point was.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

DA - as you probably know, many "pentecostal" churches in Mexico deliberately put United Pentecostal in their name, because the UPC in Mexico is a distinctive "brand" name.
This is an irritant to many of the leaders of the UPC in Mexico.
That's all I believe the point was.

Aegsm, I wish this was as cut and dry as some corporation upset that there are pirates selling knock-offs of their products ....

But we're speaking of the Church of Jesus Christ and a General Superintendent calling other apostolics - pirates and thieves while stating their product is "a shadow of the substance" and an imitation of the real thing ...

Truth is the UPCI virtually ignored the country of Mexico from 1945-1980 ... when they sent their first missionary and started the United Pentecostal Church of Mexico ... http://www.ipumex.net/quienes-somos.htm

The rest of Latin America was evangelized for decades prior .... none of this starts in Mexico.

TW was born and raised in the greatest revival the UPCI has ever had in its existence ... that was in Colombia ... a revival that pre-dates its very existence and later handled mainly under their auspices from 1945-1967 when Oscar Vouga arrived telling the nationals that St. Louis was insisting they be autonomous.

Since 1969 there has been a national United Pentecostal Church of Colombia and United Pentecostal Church Church International of Colombia.

Since then the IPUC has sent missionaries and workers worldwide as well.

Entities like The Hispanic United Pentecostal Church (a Texas based institution) started by a Colombian national living in Houston, Rev. Silguero started at around the same time the UPCI took interest in Mexico .. keeping in mind the Apostolic Assembly had a major presence there since 1925.

In the late 80's the IPUC, the Colombian national church, started a sister organization called the IPUL ... the United Pentecostal Church of Latin America to reach Spanish speakers in the Latin America and in North America as well.

TW is well aware of the contentions among these "competitors", as am I, since I grew up in the midst of it ....

I know the contentions on both sides ... as I've also seen how the finger pointing of "you stole my sheep" works.

I know the rancor ... the posturing ... the division ... and seen my own father hurt by it.

This is more than targeting irritants ..... or a distinctive brand name ... and if this be the case .... if piracy and thievery is the issue ...take the matter into the courts rather than a public assassination of character of fellow brethren ... who like his father, Bill Drost ... brought to the Lord.

What I don't understand is if one takes exception about others taking their flock calling it dishonesty ... why turn around and make an open invitation to them to join your org ... while still taking stabs at their level of holiness and authority?

I would say, why not just stay with using our institutional name? Why not unite with the IPUM? It's not that difficult. Why stay with the shadow and not the substance? If you are going to belong to something, why not belong to the best? Is it because you don't want to tithe, as all our ministers in the IPUM? Is it because you don't want to keep the same level of holiness? Is it because you don't want to be under authority? Well, let me tell you, we are all under SOME kind of authority – it can a congregation who believes it is the pastor and leader, but perhaps it is they who intelligently control YOU.

This is about influence, power and control .... not the Kingdom of God. He flat out says ... join and start paying your tithes to us.

What makes it ugly are articles like these by those who know better.

It's why calls for unity never work ... because my niche has to lead it ... and its why the greatest missionary problems in the UPCI have always been in Latin America ...

As long as the attitude is we want unity but big brother has to lead it ...

Why not preach the Cross of Christ ... and stop worrying about who goes where.

We don't own Truth, much less sheep ... I just want Him to own me.

Really after all this time ... decades later we're going to fight over a name?

[DAII]

Originally Posted by BeenThinkin

DA were you at this conference in '75? I was and remember it well. I even spoke during the debating of the resolution. The resolution was first read in a closed preacher's meeting. During the reading, ministers wept and cried as a mighty move of God's presence entered the room.

Then, some time later, the open business meeting began and the debating and arguing began. It seemed that many forgot about the beautiful atmosphere at the original reading, and politics took over.

Memories!!

Been Thinkin

Wasn't there ... I was 2. I'm sure they cried and then bickered. It's the way.