If you had two minutes with the Pope

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Sam

If he and I could pray "The Apostles' Creed" together and he really believed it, I would consider him a brother in Christ.

Really? Would Paul rebuke him for any of his doctrines today??

Ex Cathedra
Transubstantiation
Worship of Mary
Infant Baptism
Prayers for the dead
Praying to Saints
Extreme legalism for it's priesthood
Worship of icons and statues
Enforced celibacy
Church equal to the Bible (see ex cathedra)
Justification by works

I'm amazed you'd call him brother. How far have we gone? I wonder what Paul's epistle would say to North America today.

[Jeffrey]

Just believe in Jesus as LORD, but false prophets are okay?

[RevDWW]

Tell him that wearing that ring will send him to hell.......



Really two minutes would not be enough time to have a meaningful conversation with him.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Really? Would Paul rebuke him for any of his doctrines today??

Ex Cathedra
Transubstantiation
Worship of Mary
Infant Baptism
Prayers for the dead
Praying to Saints
Extreme legalism for it's priesthood
Worship of icons and statues
Enforced celibacy
Church equal to the Bible (see ex cathedra)
Justification by works

I'm amazed you'd call him brother. How far have we gone? I wonder what Paul's epistle would say to North America today.

Let's see what apostolics have...

Standards/Pastors equal to the bible,
justification by standards,
extreme legalism for anyone who gets on the platform in church,
praying to the man Jesus Christ by thanking him for dying for us,
worship of the holiness image
worship of the pastor

I think apostolics aren't as far off from catholics as you seem to think, at least many of the UC ones...

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Let's see what apostolics have...

Standards/Pastors equal to the bible,
justification by standards,
extreme legalism for anyone who gets on the platform in church,
praying to the man Jesus Christ by thanking him for dying for us,
worship of the holiness image
worship of the pastor

I think apostolics aren't as far off from catholics as you seem to think, at least many of the UC ones...

I'll speak "as an Apostolic" on this one:
Don't believe justification by standards, don't believe in legalism, certainly don't pray to a man, don't worship any image or a pastor (back to the man reference). The false doctrines do not even pale in comparison. The list I gave was just the tip of the iceberg. Sure, maybe there are some extreme wackos, but I'm talking false doctrine. The Works-based theology COMES from RCC.

But let's talk about RCC on this thread

So how will God judge a false prophet? I don't want to find out myself.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Really? Would Paul rebuke him for any of his doctrines today??

Ex Cathedra
Transubstantiation
Worship of Mary
Infant Baptism
Prayers for the dead
Praying to Saints
Extreme legalism for it's priesthood
Worship of icons and statues
Enforced celibacy
Church equal to the Bible (see ex cathedra)
Justification by works

I'm amazed you'd call him brother. How far have we gone? I wonder what Paul's epistle would say to North America today.

Some of the stuff in that list above are similar to UPC polity and practice.

For example, some UPC ministers do not "baptize" infants but they do preach that water baptism is "born of water" and that if baptism is "properly administered" it can wash away sin.

There is "worship" of some of the UPC "stars"

It is taught that we have to keep ourselves saved by obeying our pastor.

The Manual is looked upon by some in the same way "holy tradition" is looked upon by Roman Catholics.

Some teach that you have to stay "in the church" to be saved, and then set up rules/standards that must be adhered to in order to stay "in the church"

"Holy Magic Hair" is about the same, in my opinion, as some of the superstitions about relics of the saints.

Then there's the Affirmation Statement --no further comment.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Sam

Some of the stuff in that list above are similar to UPC polity and practice.

For example, some UPC ministers do not "baptize" infants but they do preach that water baptism is "born of water" and that if baptism is "properly administered" it can wash away sin.

There is "worship" of some of the UPC "stars"

It is taught that we have to keep ourselves saved by obeying our pastor.

The Manual is looked upon by some in the same way "holy tradition" is looked upon by Roman Catholics.

Some teach that you have to stay "in the church" to be saved, and then set up rules/standards that must be adhered to in order to stay "in the church"

"Holy Magic Hair" is about the same, in my opinion, as some of the superstitions about relics of the saints.

Then there's the Affirmation Statement --no further comment.

Sigh. You guys can't have a discussion about another group without throwing your darts and getting on your usual same-ol, same-ol soap boxes.

Some teach, some teach. Fine. Don't group them together. But the question remains: how will God judge false doctrine? The RCC doctrines are rather distinctly anti-Christ in many ways, not to mention in violation of the Moral Law.

Your baptism claim being thrown at Pentecost is a stretch. Like trying to put a speedo on Oprah kind of stretch. We baptism a believer at repentance and confession of their faith -- whether or not you agree one is "saved" at that moment or that salvation "has begun" is not a critical issue. There's plenty of scripture to support baptism as essential, and though I have questions concerning the Spirit Infilling, baptism is so saturated in Scripture it's plain and clear. Not to mention the early Church fathers and records of baptism. You're a historian, you should know this stuff. But we'll save that for another thread sometime.

Regarding worship of pastors -- that certainly isn't a doctrine of the church. Nice try though.

Regarding obedience to those that have the rule, and that answer for their souls -- this is very subjective. Some abuse that authority, but the authority nevertheless exists and is not a "false doctrine." What is false is when the man speaks for Jesus, instead of telling what Jesus told.

The Manual is not looked at the same was RCC history and canon is looked at. What a joke.

Holy Magic Hair does not represent even a small percentage of the uncut hair constituents, who hold to their intepretation of 1 Cor 11 (which I don't believe is accurate), but to the point that they don't consider it part of the Gospel (Mangun), neither do I consider it "false doctrine."

Again - let's go back to the subject: The Pope. We have plenty of opportunities to stand on soap boxes with anti-Pentecost in general rhetoric.

So answer the question: are false prophets your brother? Are they part of the body?

[Jeffrey]

Didn't mean to come off brash on that one - but goodness. We have plenty of opportunities to talk about these things on their own merit. This was about the Pope and what I got was generalities and potshots on how Pentecost is "just as much" full of false doctrine as the RCC!

I know, I know.. the firestorm is coming. But hear me out. (I'm just as open to critiquing the inconsistencies of the doctrines I've fed on since I was a child, and that's mostly what we do here - which is why I come around. But for a moment, can we hit the "pause" button)

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceL...opic/124/4433/

I thought this was a fascinating blog by Piper today. He deals with Justification by faith alone. About five or so years ago I read some passages in the bible and this core doctrine just leaped from the pages and I was never the same again.

Many within the UPC say that they teach justification by faith and maybe some do. David Bernard has books about it. However, when my own father and I were not able to reconcile our beliefs on this doctrine my world came crashing down and I finally had to make my own decisions. He was highly regarded in our local church and among many as a very wise man and a great teacher. Yet it was this simple doctrine of justification by faith that separated us. The hardest thing I have ever done was to go a different path than my family.

Is justification by faith really that big a deal among Pentecostals. I determined that it wasn't being preaching and it has cost me so much. Yes, life is better, yes I have joy after having finally found saving faith, yes I have clear direction but everything I was is now gone.

I sometimes wonder if I had known how all this would play out if I wouldn't have just shut my bible and kept quiet.

Is this thread about what you would ask the Pope or is it about you, the UPC and Justification by faith?

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Didn't mean to come off brash on that one - but goodness. We have plenty of opportunities to talk about these things on their own merit. This was about the Pope and what I got was generalities and potshots on how Pentecost is "just as much" full of false doctrine as the RCC!

I know, I know.. the firestorm is coming. But hear me out. (I'm just as open to critiquing the inconsistencies of the doctrines I've fed on since I was a child, and that's mostly what we do here - which is why I come around. But for a moment, can we hit the "pause" button)

Im surprised you expected anything different.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Is this thread about what you would ask the Pope or is it about you, the UPC and Justification by faith?

Im rather confused myself