What's the difference?

[Aquila]

While Jesus certainly ate, visited with, and fellowshipped sincere, open minded, truth hungry, sinners.

But I don't see an instance wherein Jesus went to the taverns, brothels, and festivities wherein these things were taking place.

I'd avoid these places unless I felt a clear and specific leading of the Holy Spirit to go in on a mission. A bar & grill might be my only exception. I might go in if it were a decent hour of the day and I was just stopping for food and drink. The reputation of the bar & grill and the daily clientele would help determine my decision.

[Wilsonwas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

While Jesus certainly ate, visited with, and fellowshipped sincere, open minded, truth hungry, sinners.

But I don't see an instance wherein Jesus went to the taverns, brothels, and festivities wherein these things were taking place.

I'd avoid these places unless I felt a clear and specific leading of the Holy Spirit to go in on a mission. A bar & grill might be my only exception. I might go in if it were a decent hour of the day and I was just stopping for food and drink. The reputation of the bar & grill and the daily clientele would help determine my decision.

Likely I will catch it for saying so, but nice pubs, not bars, and a nice little drink I think are actually good for you, unless you are the type that cannot stop at one or two. If a brother were the type that cannot help himself, I would avoid all in order that he not stumble.
But, for me - a little in a nice place is fine. By nice place I would refer to the English country pub style, we have some of these in small towns about, and these I enjoy.

So perhaps I will be called a libertine, etc. Which I have learned is equivalent here to....." I disagree, I have no scripture I can twist hard enough to actually prove myself right thus I will discredit your sincerity as Apostolic"

I just dont buy the idea that we are to be so seperate as to not enjoy good things because so and so preached against it in the way back....

A lovely burbon, or single malt, meade, or wine in total moderation has been proven good for you by medical science. It certainly does no harm, and paired with a nice meal of Shepards Pie for instance - makes a nice evening nicer.

The same folk sometimes that may rail on me for this post, will kill it at Golden Coral, and die early from heart issues, but they see this not as glutinous- just sayin.

A brothel is no place to be at all.

A bar with a tendancy toward being a hook up shop, or where lonely drunks live out country /rock lyrics, I would avoid.

Not sure I fully understand festivites in your context, so ill not address that.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Wilsonwas

Likely I will catch it for saying so, but nice pubs, not bars, and a nice little drink I think are actually good for you, unless you are the type that cannot stop at one or two. If a brother were the type that cannot help himself, I would avoid all in order that he not stumble.
But, for me - a little in a nice place is fine. By nice place I would refer to the English country pub style, we have some of these in small towns about, and these I enjoy.

So perhaps I will be called a libertine, etc. Which I have learned is equivalent here to....." I disagree, I have no scripture I can twist hard enough to actually prove myself right thus I will discredit your sincerity as Apostolic"

I just dont buy the idea that we are to be so seperate as to not enjoy good things because so and so preached against it in the way back....

A lovely burbon, or single malt, meade, or wine in total moderation has been proven good for you by medical science. It certainly does no harm, and paired with a nice meal of Shepards Pie for instance - makes a nice evening nicer.

The same folk sometimes that may rail on me for this post, will kill it at Golden Coral, and die early from heart issues, but they see this not as glutinous- just sayin.

A brothel is no place to be at all.

A bar with a tendancy toward being a hook up shop, or where lonely drunks live out country /rock lyrics, I would avoid.

Not sure I fully understand festivites in your context, so ill not address that.

Proverbs 31:4-7 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: [5] Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. [6] Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. [7] Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." If that fits you then, drink up!

Isaiah 5:20
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Wilsonwas

Likely I will catch it for saying so, but nice pubs, not bars, and a nice little drink I think are actually good for you, unless you are the type that cannot stop at one or two. If a brother were the type that cannot help himself, I would avoid all in order that he not stumble.
But, for me - a little in a nice place is fine. By nice place I would refer to the English country pub style, we have some of these in small towns about, and these I enjoy.

So perhaps I will be called a libertine, etc. Which I have learned is equivalent here to....." I disagree, I have no scripture I can twist hard enough to actually prove myself right thus I will discredit your sincerity as Apostolic"

I just dont buy the idea that we are to be so seperate as to not enjoy good things because so and so preached against it in the way back....

A lovely burbon, or single malt, meade, or wine in total moderation has been proven good for you by medical science. It certainly does no harm, and paired with a nice meal of Shepards Pie for instance - makes a nice evening nicer.

The same folk sometimes that may rail on me for this post, will kill it at Golden Coral, and die early from heart issues, but they see this not as glutinous- just sayin.

A brothel is no place to be at all.

A bar with a tendancy toward being a hook up shop, or where lonely drunks live out country /rock lyrics, I would avoid.

Not sure I fully understand festivites in your context, so ill not address that.

So two wrongs makes it right for you to drink. still wrong.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Wilsonwas

Likely I will catch it for saying so, but nice pubs, not bars, and a nice little drink I think are actually good for you, unless you are the type that cannot stop at one or two. If a brother were the type that cannot help himself, I would avoid all in order that he not stumble.
But, for me - a little in a nice place is fine. By nice place I would refer to the English country pub style, we have some of these in small towns about, and these I enjoy.

So perhaps I will be called a libertine, etc. Which I have learned is equivalent here to....." I disagree, I have no scripture I can twist hard enough to actually prove myself right thus I will discredit your sincerity as Apostolic"

I just dont buy the idea that we are to be so seperate as to not enjoy good things because so and so preached against it in the way back....

A lovely burbon, or single malt, meade, or wine in total moderation has been proven good for you by medical science. It certainly does no harm, and paired with a nice meal of Shepards Pie for instance - makes a nice evening nicer.

The same folk sometimes that may rail on me for this post, will kill it at Golden Coral, and die early from heart issues, but they see this not as glutinous- just sayin.

A brothel is no place to be at all.

A bar with a tendancy toward being a hook up shop, or where lonely drunks live out country /rock lyrics, I would avoid.

Not sure I fully understand festivites in your context, so ill not address that.

I tend to agree with you.

There is an awesome bar and grilled called, Tank's, near my home. It serves fantastic food and unless it is after 10pm, things are pretty calm and my family loves it. I'd never take kids there after 10pm, just sayin'. But a nice dinner, a nice drink, and some friendly conversation never hurt anyone.

I think we're in agreement.

[Wilsonwas]

Lol, figures you two would be first in on that

1."It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: [5] Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. [6] Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. [7] Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." If that fits you then, drink up!

I am neither king nor prince, I do manage things so - liquid lunch would be a bad idea, as is noted in this scriptire. I have a heavy heart by times, so I will take that portion and say no where did it say drink is a sin. It is good advice that those that use judgement in the ecercise of their position should not do so under its influence. So my occasional tip of a glass is just fine.

2.So two wrongs makes it right for you to drink. still wrong.
Since I do not see that moderate use of something that was also part of a miracle performed by Jesus, is wrong, that is not my arguement at all. Rather in the spirit of motes and beams in eyes, some fat guy in a suit and clean shaven, will consume great amounts of food, yet feel justified to call me a sinner......cause he is a preacher and all.

[berkeley]

Lambusco Dolce from H-E-B. Served chilled. Mmmm

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Proverbs 31:4-7 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: [5] Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. [6] Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. [7] Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." If that fits you then, drink up!

Isaiah 5:20
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Let's look at the verse you posted.

Proverbs 31:4-7 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: [5] Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. [6] Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. [7] Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more."

This verse admonishes leaders not to be given to wine. Lest they risk falling into drunkenness and forget the law and pervert judgment. This is a warning, not a law.

We also see this intoxicant being used medicinally.

- "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish...", strong drink (or any intoxicant for that matter) can be used to ease the pain and suffering of the dying.

- "and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.", wine can be used to ease anxiety. Many who are honest about an occasional glass of wine will tell you that it lightens the heart and the mood. But one must not forget, too much of a good thing can bring one to drunkenness. It's all about moderation.

Wine is considered a blessing:

Psalm 104:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

Wine, partaken in responsibly, makes glad the heart of man.

Even Paul recommends that Timothy take a little wine for medicinal purposes:

1 Timothy 5:23 (ESV)
(No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)

When observing the feasts, God even commanded His people to party with their fill of wine and strong drink:

Deuteronomy 14:24-27 English Standard Version (ESV)
24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.

Essentially... drunkenness is to alcoholic beverages (intoxicants) what gluttony is to food. Neither food nor alcoholic beverages are a "sin" in and of themselves. It is the abuse of food and/or alcohol that is a sin. Christ's first miracle was turning water to wine. And the holiest of Christian sacraments traditionally involves wine (the Lord's Supper).

If we call what God has called a blessing, "sin", we spit in the face of the Creator and call Him a liar.

Isaiah 5:20
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

[Aquila]

Of course, mental midgets, and men given to extremes or extremism, should never drink. They are ungoverned and live at full throttle regardless of what direction they take or decision they make.

But those who have self-control and live temperate lives do not sin if they continue in their moderation.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Let's look at the verse you posted.

Proverbs 31:4-7 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: [5] Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. [6] Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. [7] Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more."

This verse admonishes leaders not to be given to wine. Lest they risk falling into drunkenness and forget the law and pervert judgment. This is a warning, not a law.

We also see this intoxicant being used medicinally.

- "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish...", strong drink (or any intoxicant for that matter) can be used to ease the pain and suffering of the dying.

- "and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.", wine can be used to ease anxiety. Many who are honest about an occasional glass of wine will tell you that it lightens the heart and the mood. But one must not forget, too much of a good thing can bring one to drunkenness. It's all about moderation.

Wine is considered a blessing:

Psalm 104:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

Wine, partaken in responsibly, makes glad the heart of man.

Even Paul recommends that Timothy take a little wine for medicinal purposes:

1 Timothy 5:23 (ESV)
(No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)

When observing the feasts, God even commanded His people to party with their fill of wine and strong drink:

Deuteronomy 14:24-27 English Standard Version (ESV)
24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.

Essentially... drunkenness is to alcoholic beverages (intoxicants) what gluttony is to food. Neither food nor alcoholic beverages are a "sin" in and of themselves. It is the abuse of food and/or alcohol that is a sin. Christ's first miracle was turning water to wine. And the holiest of Christian sacraments traditionally involves wine (the Lord's Supper).

If we call what God has called a blessing, "sin", we spit in the face of the Creator and call Him a liar.

Isaiah 5:20
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Strong drink and wine in scripture are 2 different things. Only the dregs of society in those times drank fermented drink. To have the best and freshest wine was a status symbol.And the only way the Lord's supper is served with wine like your talking about is in a Catholic church.. I guess now your in support of Roman Catholicism and the Pope, because they are all for drinking in church..

Wine and water in Timothy's case purified the water, but it wouldn't intoxicate you. Which you can tell by Pauls admonition of Timothy that Timothy didn't want to do it. He was apprehensive of mixing it with water, as to make the water drinkable.

But if your dying then drink and be merry for tommorow you die. But if you are made a King and Priest as was promised to you, Strong drink is not for you, says so in the scripture..