Swinging Saints!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Perhaps, Prax, it has to do with credibility and crying wolf? When one person says it, it is brushed off, and when another does, it is taken seriously. Think about it: Why would that be?

I realize all that. What we have here is second hand retelling. We don't know first hand facts and in the case of the person telling the original story we can't question them. Did they go to one of these parties? Can we get another person from that church to testify? What are they doing about it? Certainly if this person knows others in that church have to know

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Trust me! I know! Part of my shock was due to the fact that his warped brain thought I might appreciate such a foul gesture.

warped brain or carnal soul

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Esther

Praxesas let me clarify something for you. I do not know if the pastor knows or not. Second, I do know the pastor has asked the couples to NOT do something specfic and they still do it. Many young people today do NOT respect authority as we do.

And I agree with the Bishop, I believe this generation hears and openly discusses sex to the point it is a non issue to them.

They were that open in the 60s too. That they are open Im not sure what that is supposed to mean or prove. They are supposed to have the Spirit. The Pastor is hopefully preaching against sin. On another note we've had people here claim they don't need to name sins....well either they DO or there is something SERIOUSLY wrong in some of these churches. MissB gives a good example. Did that man think nothing wrong with that? Is that the behavior of a carnal man or a spiritual man? Im less concerned with trends here and more concerned with HOW these things can be happening and not get discovered or preached against. I don't even need a pastor to tell me wife swapping (no relation to the TV show Hoover lol) is ok. Adultery is still adultery. This generation is supposed to have their hearts circumcised when they come to the Lord.

This is not about the organization as all organizations are made up of people. People sin. YET because we have the Holy Ghost to lead and direct us I would have expected that to stop folks from going in this direct. But as I was told they meet in the church and discuss it and invite others to join them.

I never said it was about the Organization. This has nothing to do with what I have said so far. If they are that open in the church the pastor HAS to know OR the facts surrounding what is really happening might be NOT what it seems and thus I once again raise the issue of caution and not just accepting that it is true,

Just as MB stated of the incident that happened to her at CHURCH folks don't respect others or the House of God to leave this stuff at the door. Too much personal information is being shared about their bedrooms!

And? I never said these things don't or can't happen. In fact I said I am sure they do and can happen. I simply said we need to NOT just accept every story we hear is true, particularly second hand ones and be cautious.

And as I said already I have SEEN how damaging second hand stories that were NOT true at all work. CAUTION is what I said sister

You can choose to believe or not believe, I really don't care.

Sister please read what I said more objectively. I choose CAUTION. I did not take sides. I simply said we need to be cautious because history bears out that NOT every story is in fact true.

All I'm looking for is this an isolated event? No, it appears it is not. Gladly, neither does it appear to be rampant across the organization. That I am thankful for.

I don't even know that this "event" really happened at that church. That is my point. We have stories. It could have happened and it could not have happened but a lot of people here are forming their posts in absolute terms that it did in fact happen, no more evidence need be presented. If this was to go to court it would NEVER even make trial based on what we have so far.

What is the cost of this going on?

I don't know what you mean. I never said anything about costs and going on. It would be very appreciated by me to quote me next time because now people are reading your post addressed to me and thinking I said things I did not. This is how false ideas about others get going

For one thing, the one that told me about it now goes to church less, is not fellowshipping with others, because they now know to much, and they are just going to church and coming home.

They they really have not much to lose by telling the pastor or writing HQ.

This is not good nor healthy for this couple. I would doubt ALL the couples in that church are involved in this. I didn't ask for a lot of details. My mouth was hanging open with disbelief that this could be happening.

Im not sure why you are telling me all this. Again you addressed this post to me. All I am about is making sure we don't all assume this is true based on the second hand report of one person. It could be true and it could not be true. But if we are willing to accept each and everything we hear as the absolute truth then we have a lot of problems besides sexual immorality in our churches. As I have said I have seen pastors and saints be falsely accuse of things because facts got distorted or disgruntled members stretched the truth or for what ever other reason. So again I exercise CAUTION

And this is not a large church or 300 or more. It is in the Bible belt, so again, it was a shock to hear this is going on even now.

Even more likely if this story is true the Pastor knows

I went to bed last night wondering how I could let the pastor of this church know without exposing the person who told me. I would not want them further wounded by being approached to "testify" if you will against their peers.

Write him a letter, but I am having a hard time understanding given what you have posted that he does not know or have heard about it. Only 300? They openly discuss bedroom talk? Your friend was invited? How can the pastor not know? Why hasn't God told him? Or maybe he has told him and either he does nothing or he is just preaching and praying against it or whatever, who knows. But it's all speculation.

I will probably discuss this with my pastor and see if he would like to handle this.

But I have seen to often the one who reports these things become the victim and I will not allow that to happen to this precious couple if I can avoid it in any way.

How about an anonymous letter? My only thing is, what if it really is NOT happening?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Wanting to test the validity of such a serious charge is not being nosey

Originally Posted by Esther

Wanting names and details in this case isn't going to happen! IF he doesn't want to believe it I could care less. No names of a church no names of a person was given, nor any state.

And that is your choice however I repeat what I said, which you did not really refute or anything. This person was accused of being nosy. Yet we are all discussing this thing and I don't doubt half of you want to know when and where and might have even asked in PM.

Wanting to know more of the facts of such an egregious event is NOT being nosy.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I didn't tell my husband until after we had resigned our positions on staff and moved out of state. At the time, I think I didn't want to cause problems for the man's wife, who was one of my best friends. That did turn out to be a mistake, though. If I had it to do over, I think I would have told the pastor every single thing that happened, whether he wanted to hear it or not. There was a second incident, (of a different and worse sort) which I did tell my husband, and he went to the pastor. The pastor did try to address it (after we had already left), or at least he said he did. We weren't present, and I never received an apology, which I would have appreciated.

You wouldn't believe how shy and timid I was at one time, Esther. Even trying to tell someone about such an incident would have rendered me frozen and speechless.

Thank the LORD I have outgrown that now!!!!

As much as it might be twisted around and turned on the "teller" I think we need to speak up in these cases. This man...I hope he was not a leader or used in the church. Sin in our own ranks is a serious thing. Some sins are just personal and we deal with it. But sins that are open and where a persons character is not changing is serious and needs to be stopped. Paul says exactly that by dealing with the man that had his fathers wife.

We have members in our churches that to many others are not what they seem sadly. And even worse is when they try to influence others especially the younger ones.

As I said over and over I am not saying this original story that started this thread is untrue. I said we need to be cautious because we are only getting one second hand story.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by CC1

Miss Brattperson,

In my case it is not that I doubt the veracity of some of the persons bringing the accusations here it is that most of these stories are second or third hand and I know how rumors in Pentecost work.

Most of the people repeating them are honest and good hearted but at each step of the journey one or two words can get changed just a little and before you know it the rumor bears little resemblence to the truth.

Case in point is one poster on here who posted about a pastor saying that what married couples did in the privacy of their home was their own business.

This poster inferred that this pastor was possibly condoning wife swapping or something like that which is hooey because it was obvius the pastor was talking about what goes on between a husband and wife.

By the time that story gets retold a few more times the pastor will have been in bed with couples!

Thank you again! Exactly. And I too know how these stories get started. We need to be cautious. CC1 I appreciate you saying this, This shows this is not about organizational pride.

Folks we KNOW we have had folks even in HIGH places apparently ended up being individuals that were not at all what they seemed to be all the time we knew them. We KNOW these things can and do happen. But it's not a good thing to just assume every story and every facet of every story is 100% accurate

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

This is a difficult subject to discuss, but at the same time I believe it does need to be addressed.

If we think things like this doesn't happen in churches, we are only fooling ourselves. Making others aware could help someone in the situation have the boldness that they need to speak up and expose it.

There have been no names or churches mentioned in this thread just situations mentioned.

So far I have read through this thread and not once did I see someone say it does not happen.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Esther

I understand that some rumors have been started unfounded, however, that doesn't make every story a "rumor", therefore, rendering unbelievable.

That is his point though, and mine. Nobody is saying every story is not true. We are saying let's be cautious on any and all stories until we have enough facts that we can say this is not just a rumor of the facts are not all 100% accurate.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by CC1

I understand and agree. I just think it is a real can of worms to start sharing stories and rumors of this nature.

Believe me I know my share and have a high level of confidence in some and absolutley know others are true!

I am the guy that many years ago in about a three year period saw my sectional presybter, sectional SS director, and sectoinal Youth leader, all pastors, commit adultery. I know it goes on.

We need to acknowledge that this type sin is real but is also limited to a very small number of churches or pastors who are sinning and failing God.

If there is a UPC pastor openly condoning wife swapping I have to believe he is the one or two in a century that would do that!

And if the facts are in and a Pastor is guilty and is not removed I think those facts need to be made public until every member of said organization is writing to HQ and complaining. Alas too many of us are the same way in the church as we are in politics...we don't get involved

[MissBrattified]

To be fair, Prax (and CC1), it doesn't exactly fall under the umbrella of "rumor" if it is discussed generically, without names, places or specific details that point to anyone, any church or any pastor in particular.

At the same time, when someone tries to be careful enough not to talk about another person, but merely a "situation", specifics are then demanded. LOL!!! It's quite a quandary.