Show Me the Money

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

This is your opinion. Every man does what is right in their own sight. What does the Bible say about who the tithes go to?

Yes, it is my opinion...and I stated that, didn't I? You act as if this is limited to a local assembly....the kingdom of God is larger than that....

when pastors receive monies from the offering, don't they give to certain missionary ministries, etc. as they see fit....since when can a saint not make the same determinations on how he distributes the monies that he earns from his labor....

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I would place MY financial records on the bulletin board without any reluctance whatsoever WITH every member's. I told an inquiring saint that once he never mentioned it again.
In a unnamed city in an unnamed state a church member stood and said he was wondering what was happening to the church money. This pastor lived very modestly though his wife had inherited a good deal but hardly anyone knows that fact. The pastor said alright tonight I will read the record. That night the pastor brought every church record all the way back to the 40's. He said now first since this Bro. is concerned I want to read HIS tithing record. The man made mega bucks but had paid $20 a week in tithes for years. Guess what the discussion was over. Most folks who are OVERLY concerned think the preacher is as dishonest as they are.
New churches are built, maintained, functions function where does this come from one might ask?

This is the type response I have heard against accountability. The attitude is an elitist attitude, one that does not reflect the spirit of Jesus. The pastor may even have gone on and told the church how much of the church's bill he paid out of his own pocket, of course from the tithe, this is carnal games.

The fact that the member didn't know anything about the church's affairs is instructive. The pastor not having an elder team around him was vulnerable to suspicion, so he became defensive and humiliated the member, rather than providing instruction. This is typical of someone who sets himself up above the folks that voluntarily supports the pastor and the work of God.

The elder team is the accountability team, not just every Tom, Dick and Harry that may attend, once and awhile. You may not call them elders, the question is are you accountable. This doesn't mean that the elders know all your business, just that you are completely above board with the resources God provides for his kingdom.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by crakjak

This is the type response I have heard against accountability. The attitude is an elitist attitude, one that does not reflect the spirit of Jesus. The pastor may even have gone on and told the church how much of the church's bill he paid out of his own pocket, of course from the tithe, this is carnal games.

The fact that the member didn't know anything about the church's affairs is instructive. The pastor not having an elder team around him was vulnerable to suspicion, so he became defensive and humiliated the member, rather than providing instruction. This is typical of someone who sets himself up above the folks that voluntarily supports the pastor and the work of God.

The elder team is the accountability team, not just every Tom, Dick and Harry that may attend, once and awhile. You may not call them elders, the question is are you accountable. This doesn't mean that the elders know all your business, just that you are completely above board with the resources God provides for his kingdom.

You have a way of putting things in perspective, Master!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I would place MY financial records on the bulletin board without any reluctance whatsoever WITH every member's. I told an inquiring saint that once he never mentioned it again.
In a unnamed city in an unnamed state a church member stood and said he was wondering what was happening to the church money. This pastor lived very modestly though his wife had inherited a good deal but hardly anyone knows that fact. The pastor said alright tonight I will read the record. That night the pastor brought every church record all the way back to the 40's. He said now first since this Bro. is concerned I want to read HIS tithing record. The man made mega bucks but had paid $20 a week in tithes for years. Guess what the discussion was over. Most folks who are OVERLY concerned think the preacher is as dishonest as they are.
New churches are built, maintained, functions function where does this come from one might ask?

Brother Steve, I know you are a better man than this post reflects.

The spirit of Jesus would have humble himself and disclosed the facts and won the man over. Why is a church member under this pastor no more engaged after so many years? Maybe the pastors stubborn attitude about money prevented him from trusting the pastor. Secretively going about spending the Lord's money without communicating with those who work and provide the resource, by God's provision.

I am sorry, brother but this attitude is exactly what limits the work of God. You and every other pastor should have a team around them that sets the church leadership above reproach or any accusation that the enemy could bring against them. For crying out loud the IRS knows what I make, why in God's name do I mind if those who are closest to me in ministry know me fully and completely. Sounds like the pastor totally mistrusts those whom he has pastor for years.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Brother Steve, I know you are a better man than this post reflects.

The spirit of Jesus would have humble himself and disclosed the facts and won the man over. Why is a church member under this pastor no more engaged after so many years? Maybe the pastors stubborn attitude about money prevented him for trusting the pastor. Secretively going about spending the Lord's money without communicating with those who work and provide the resource, by God's provision.

I am sorry, brother but this attitude is exactly what limits the work of God. You and every other pastor should have a team around them that sets the church leadership above reproach or any accusation that the enemy could bring against them. For crying out loud the IRS knows what I make, why in God's name do I mind if those who are closest to me in ministry know me fully and completely. Sounds like the pastor totally mistrusts those whom he has pastor for years.

How about the attitude of the tightwad who paid $20 a week in tithes for years, rather than actually giving the 10%? How much did his attitude affect the work of the God?

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Brother Steve, I know you are a better man than this post reflects.

The spirit of Jesus would have humble himself and disclosed the facts and won the man over. Why is a church member under this pastor no more engaged after so many years? Maybe the pastors stubborn attitude about money prevented him from trusting the pastor. Secretively going about spending the Lord's money without communicating with those who work and provide the resource, by God's provision.

I am sorry, brother but this attitude is exactly what limits the work of God. You and every other pastor should have a team around them that sets the church leadership above reproach or any accusation that the enemy could bring against them. For crying out loud the IRS knows what I make, why in God's name do I mind if those who are closest to me in ministry know me fully and completely. Sounds like the pastor totally mistrusts those whom he has pastor for years.

On various occassions I have seen the Elder (by his written word) draw this line in the sand that creates a chasm between clergy and laity...in his language, I never see the attempt to draw closer together the clergy and laity but rather to make sure the line of demarcation is vividly seen.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Rico

How about the attitude of the tightwad who paid $20 a week in tithes for years, rather than actually giving the 10%? How much did his attitude affect the work of the God?

Obviously, the pastor had not won him to the Lord. Since when is it the pastor job to embarrass folks into doing what the scripture clearly teaches? The pastor brought himself down to the level of the one that he could and should have won over many years before. The responsibility is on the pastor to reflect the spirit of Jesus, not to defend himself.

If the pastor had had an elder team around him, assuming that the member was actually out of line, pastor could have simply told him that the details were handled by the elder team. However, even better all regular givers and member should receive reasonable disclosure of where the money goes. That way they are responsible in their giving and are free to give even more. The attitude of that pastor was a stubborn carnal attitude that stinks to high heaven.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Obviously, the pastor had not won him to the Lord. Since when is it the pastor job to embarrass folks into doing what the scripture clearly teaches? The pastor brought himself down to the level of the one that he could and should have won over many years before. The responsibility is on the pastor to reflect the spirit of Jesus, not to defend himself.

If the pastor had had an elder team around him, assuming that the member was actually out of line, pastor could have simply told him that the details were handled by the elder team. However, even better all regular givers and member should receive reasonable disclosure of where the money goes. That way they are responsible in their giving and are free to give even more. The attitude of that pastor was a stubborn carnal attitude that stinks to high heaven.

Can someone please find me some Lysol disinfectant spray?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Obviously, the pastor had not won him to the Lord. Since when is it the pastor job to embarrass folks into doing what the scripture clearly teaches? The pastor brought himself down to the level of the one that he could and should have won over many years before. The responsibility is on the pastor to reflect the spirit of Jesus, not to defend himself.

If the pastor had had an elder team around him, assuming that the member was actually out of line, pastor could have simply told him that the details were handled by the elder team. However, even better all regular givers and member should receive reasonable disclosure of where the money goes. That way they are responsible in their giving and are free to give even more. The attitude of that pastor was a stubborn carnal attitude that stinks to high heaven.

Ok, Lemme see if I have this right. It's the pastor's fault for not winning the guy over, it's the pastor's fault the guy doubted the pastor's integrity, it's the pastor's fault, it's the pastor's fault...............ooooooooooooooooooooooooooook.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

On various occassions I have seen the Elder (by his written word) draw this line in the sand that creates a chasm between clergy and laity...in his language, I never see the attempt to draw closer together the clergy and laity but rather to make sure the line of demarcation is vividly seen.

Well honestly there is line placed by God and not I. Does it make me higher-better-smarter-more spiritual?????????? NOPE!!!!!!!!! I pastor saints who no doubt are smarter-better-and more spiritual than myself. I pastor some elderly women that I blush in their walk with God. The office makes the difference NOT the man. I hold an office the Holy Ghost placed me in as the overseer of the flock. That is God's plan.
As far winning the thief over who had been living a lie for years acting as though he was a supporter of the work of God with his tithes a man who lives a lie for years hardly ever changes this man died under the judgment of God shortly after this episode. I hope he fixed everything. But in general it has been my experience the folks who fuss the most about finance in a church are folks of this guys elk. THEY themselves are dishonest thus they judge everyone by their dishonesty. Have there been preachers who have misused funds and been dishonest? Sadly yes but I have watched through the years and eventually God fires them.