1000 year reign

[Michael The Disciple]

Hi Michael,

You have accused me of being "unethical" as to this discussion. That on the basis I have not commented on all you would like me to.

I said this earlier in the discussion I believe it was post 93.

Working a full time job and trying to spend the time I need with Yeshua daily leaves only so much time for me on the forums. I will not be able to comment on all that you say. I have now projected about all I have to say without repeating scriptures or concepts. So now as I get time I will try to comment on the highlights of what you have said:

I will not call you unethical for not answering a question. I would press you then if no response I would ask someone else.

Just a note about the phrase "rule them with a rod of iron". It has been stated here that the Church is not ruling in such fashion now, but only expects to look forward to some future time when that will come to pass.

In a previous discussion (on another forum), one of the brethren stated that Christianity merely influences activities today, but doesn't rule. The brother went on to admit that Christianity was largely responsible for the defeat of slavery in the US.

Note that during the US Civil war, there were over 600,000 American casualties. Did the Church have anything to do with that?? Was God absent from the scene and that war simply happened on its' own?? Or was Christ ruling from heaven and answering the prayers of the Church (who were ruling with Him) to overthrow the insititution of slavery?

Your thoughts on whether or not this is simply ONE example of the above scripture being fulfilled would be appreciated.

God bless.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Hi Michael,

You have accused me of being "unethical" as to this discussion. That on the basis I have not commented on all you would like me to.

I said this earlier in the discussion I believe it was post 93.

Working a full time job and trying to spend the time I need with Yeshua daily leaves only so much time for me on the forums. I will not be able to comment on all that you say. I have now projected about all I have to say without repeating scriptures or concepts. So now as I get time I will try to comment on the highlights of what you have said:

I will not call you unethical for not answering a question. I would press you then if no response I would ask someone else.

I was not saying you were unethical in not having time to respond to me. I was speaking about spending an hour to raise different issues aside from answering certain questions I already posed before that. Please read more carefully.

Ever try to nail jello to a wall? lol

Anyway, brother Blume raises the objection that first Corinthians chapter 15 teaches us that after the rapture, there is no death, and that therefore (he concludes) there cannot be any nations to reign over during the Millennium.

Yet, try as I might, I cannot find where first Corinthians chapter 15 says that "immediately upon the event known as the rapture, death will be an impossibility and therefore the Millennial doctrine is false."

In fact, if the rapture itself is the point at which death ceases to exist, then the wicked will either live forever in Paradise or else there will be no resurrection of the wicked. For notice, the destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire (which is the Second Death) occurs AFTER the "rapture" as brother Blume calls it.

Whether one second or one thousand years matters not - it still occurs AFTER the so called "rapture".

Therefore, unless brother Blume denies the reality of the second death, it is TRUE that there is DEATH AFTER THE RAPTURE.

And so the entire "no death after the rapture" anti Millennialist argument falls flat.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Eliseus

Ever try to nail jello to a wall? lol

I think I have been experiencing just that with your waffling in this post and from others lately. lol

Anyway, brother Blume raises the objection that first Corinthians chapter 15 teaches us that after the rapture, there is no death, and that therefore (he concludes) there cannot be any nations to reign over during the Millennium.

Yet, try as I might, I cannot find where first Corinthians chapter 15 says that "immediately upon the event known as the rapture, death will be an impossibility and therefore the Millennial doctrine is false."

Cop out. You'd do anything to get out of responding point by point to my post, wouldn't you? lol

What do you call this, then?:

1Co 15:25-26 KJV For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

This occurs when the rapture takes place. Jesus reigns until all enemies are under his feet, with the last one being death. And that is why we read he gives up the Kingdom to the Father when the rapture takes place. This implies that death is defeated at the rapture. And that is further corroborated later when we read the scripture speaking of death being swallowed in victory is fulfilled at the rapture.

And did you read Isa 25:8, which Paul said was fulfilled at the rapture? It says all tears are wiped away as well, and that occurs after the white throne judgment just as I claim the rpature takes us to that judgment and then we hit eternity.

Now, if you disagree with Paul here, then let us know. But Paul said death is destroyed at the rapture. And, of course, that is speaking of the first death. Physical death. How do you reconcile verse 25-26 with Rev 20:14?? Do you not believe the second death never ends??? How can Christ ever destroy death as his last enemy if death continues forever? Do you not see this has no bearing on the issue of first death (which is physical) in the context of 1 Cor 15?

Now, please go through my post point by point, and respond accordingly. See how I am responding to your own?

In fact, if the rapture itself is the point at which death ceases to exist, then the wicked will either live forever in Paradise or else there will be no resurrection of the wicked. For notice, the destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire (which is the Second Death) occurs AFTER the "rapture" as brother Blume calls it.

The second death is the everlasting lake of fire, brother. The fact remains that 1 Cor 15 teaches death is put under Jesus' feet and swallowed up in victory AT THE RAPTURE.

Whether one second or one thousand years matters not - it still occurs AFTER the so called "rapture".

Therefore, unless brother Blume denies the reality of the second death, it is TRUE that there is DEATH AFTER THE RAPTURE.

Denies the reality of the second death???? What?? The second death goes on forever, right? So by the same token that you reason death is the last enemy defeated according to 1 Cor 15, and yet the second death occurs, that is the manner in which I state death is finished. The second death is an issue that is apart from physical death. The context of 1 Cor 15 is physical death.

And so the entire "no death after the rapture" anti Millennialist argument falls flat.

Nice try. Now please respond to my post point by point. Let's not waste time here. I have repeated myself more times than necessary, already, without anyone yet responding point by point.

Originally Posted by mfblume

The second death is an issue that is apart from physical death. The context of 1 Cor 15 is physical death.

Exactly brother. It is physical death that ceases at the rapture, when the last enemy of Christ is destroyed. Right now we still suffer physical death, but when the Lord returns, physical death will be a thing of the past. Then Christ delivers up the Kingdom to the Father. Note that is scriptural. It does NOT say that Christ begins a 1,000 year physical reign on the earth -- He is ALREADY reigning NOW, and the Saints along with Him, if we would but believe the scripture.

God bless.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by The teacher

Exactly brother. It is physical death that ceases at the rapture, when the last enemy of Christ is destroyed. Right now we still suffer physical death, but when the Lord returns, physical death will be a thing of the past. Then Christ delivers up the Kingdom to the Father. Note that is scriptural. It does NOT say that Christ begins a 1,000 year physical reign on the earth -- He is ALREADY reigning NOW, and the Saints along with Him, if we would but believe the scripture.

God bless.

Amen. He rules now UNTIL all enemies are beneath his feet. All enemies are beneath his feet when the rapture occurs, since it is then that PHYSICAL DEATH is finished. And since millennialism teaches that physical death continues on after the rapture, millennialism conflicts with scripture.

Since death is swallowed up in victory at the rapture, after which the great white throne occurs, it is no wonder that Paul's references in Isa 25:8 mentions all tears are wiped away at that point, since all tears are specifically said to be wiped away only after the great white throne judgment. This means the rapture is the last thing before the great white throne judgment.

It is THEN, also, that the resurrection of damnation occurs.

Joh 5:28-29 KJV Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Act 24:15 KJV And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

In order for these passages to coincide with 1 Cor 15's note of physical death ending at the rapture, the resurrection of the just is the rapture, which occurs when the resurrection of damnation, or of the unjust, occurs. Otherwise, scripture contradicts itself!

Originally Posted by mfblume

This means the rapture is the last thing before the great white throne judgment.

It is THEN, also, that the resurrection of damnation occurs.

In order for these passages to coincide with 1 Cor 15's note of physical death ending at the rapture, the resurrection of the just is the rapture, which occurs when the resurrection of damnation, or of the unjust, occurs. Otherwise, scripture contradicts itself!

Bro. Blume,
So the broad sequence of events is this:

1. Crucifixion - Jesus Christ wins a definitive victory over the devil and the better New Covenant is inaugurated.

2. Tribulation - The final remnants of the Old Covenant are removed, culminating in the 70 ad destruction of Jerusalem. The events leading up to and including this destruction are related symbolically in Revelation chapters 1 through 18.

3. Church age - Represented by the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2. Jesus Christ is reigning, and the Saints with Him. The Kingdom of God continues to grow in the earth daily as the Church grows, and Christ's definitive victory progressively expands as more & more spoils are placed under the feet of the Victor.

4. Rapture of the Church - Coincides with the bodily resurrection of the dead, immediately followed by the judgment.

Is that how you see it?
God bless.

[Sister Alvear]

if we are reigning now it is sure different than I expect...

Sister Alvear,
At the personal level, we are no longer enslaved to sin, but exercise spritual dominion through the Holy Ghost in our lives. That is major, but unfortunately that is as far as most Christians believe. Thus, their reign is limited ONLY to themselves at a personal victory level.

Beyond that personal level, there is a corporate level of reigning where the entire Church reigns with Christ. I previously gave the example of how the Civil War should be interpreted as ruling with a rod of iron, but unfortunately most Christians don't see it that way. They don't make the connection between their prayers at a corporate level and a happening on earth at a national or global level. Without seeing that connection, or believing it is there, we limit ourselves to personal level victories only. The Church needs to believe the Word and expand our vision to exercise greater dominion in the earth, pulling down all strongholds by faith.

Those are my thoughts for your consideration. God bless.