The Pre-Existence Of The Son - Page 18

Jay · #**171** 11-11-2011, 11:09 PM

Would someone please clarify what Bro. Epley refers to when he says, "He existed but NOT as President Jesus existed NOT as Son but as God."

I do not mean to harp on an issue, but this statement as written does not make any sense to me.

Did he mean 'pre-existant' instead of 'President'?

Hoovie · #**172** 11-11-2011, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay

Would someone please clarify what Bro. Epley refers to when he says, "He existed but NOT as President Jesus existed NOT as Son but as God."

I do not mean to harp on an issue, but this statement as written does not make any sense to me.

Did he mean 'pre-existant' instead of 'President'?

Put a period behind president.

He is making a point... for example we can talk about the year President Obama was born... even though he was not a President at the time he was born.

Jay · #**173** 11-11-2011, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Put a period behind president.

He is making a point... for example we can talk about the year President Obama was born... even though he was not a President at the time he was born.

Ah, I see. I very much appreciate the clarification. Now that I see what he is saying (which is actually pretty much what I figured) I agree with him fully.

Michael The Disciple · #**174** 11-12-2011, 01:12 AM

Three people voted for this:

Quote:

I don't thing the son existed at all before the incarnation.

I would ask them what Paul meant by these statements.

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col. 1:13-17

Heb 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb. 1:1-2

Both times Paul says the Son is the Creator. How can you say the Son never existed in any way before the incarnation?

Michael The Disciple · #**175** 11-12-2011, 05:49 AM

What glory did Jesus have with the Father before the world was?

Part 1

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5

To start lets go to Hebrews 1.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Heb. 1:1-3

First I believe that Paul defines who the Son was before the world was. The brightness of his glory and the express image of HIS person.

Another place Paul says the GLORY OF GOD is in the face of Jesus Christ and that he is THE IMAGE of God.

But if our gospel be hid , it is hid to them that are lost : 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness , hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor. 4:3-6

The Son existed before Bethlehem as the IMAGE AND THE GLORY OF GOD.

What or who did the Prophet Ezekiel see on the throne of God?

And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. 27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. 28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake . Ezekiel 1:26-28

Does not Ezekiel describe this being as the likeness (image) of God? Does he not describe the likeness (image) as the image of THE GLORY OF YHWH? Did not Paul describe the Sons preexistence in exactly the same way?

THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS GLORY. THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON!

Christ as the Logos was the visible image of the Invisible omnipresent spirit that has never been seen or ever can be seen.

Paul also taught us that.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew , who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings , and Lord of lords ; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen , nor can see : to whom be honour and power everlasting. 1 Tim. 6:14-16

Paul said that NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN GOD!

What then did Ezekiel see? His visible image as the ANGEL OF YHWH!

9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. Isaiah 63:9

As an omnipresent spirit God had no visible presence. Yet before creation he fashioned this exact representation of his essence and seated it AS HIMSELF on the glorious throne Ezekiel saw!

Michael The Disciple · #**176** 11-12-2011, 06:45 AM

What Glory Did Jesus Have Before The World Was? Part 2

Quote:

As an omnipresent spirit God had no visible presence. Yet before creation he fashioned this exact representation of his essence and seated it AS HIMSELF on the glorious throne Ezekiel saw!

The Prophets learned this revelation through Jacob/Israel the Father of the Jewish people. On his deathbed when you say whats most important to you he said to his children:

15 And he blessed Joseph, and said , God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk , the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, 16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. Gen. 48:15-16

Here Jacob explained the truth about THE ANGEL OF HIS PRESENCE. He says twice to them that his God (Elohim) was the Angel. This presence or image became also known as the GLORY OF YHWH.

Ezekiel saw this again:

1 Then I looked , and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne. 2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said , Go in between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city. And he went in in my sight. 3 Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in ; and the cloud filled the inner court. 4 Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD'S glory. 5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh . Ezekiel 10:1-5

And again:

22 Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above. 23 And the glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which is on the east side of the city. Ezekiel 11:22

So again the Prophet sees the GLORY OF YHWH moving from place to place. Since no man has seen God (in omnipresence) this is the appearance of of the image/likeness of his presence!

So we are attempting to demonstrate that it is THIS glory of the Lord that Paul was writing about in Hebrews1. What he calls the brightness of his glory and the express image of his person.

Yet to be sure not ANOTHER PERSON. This was the one true in visible form. It gave him a way to come inside his Creation and get to play an active part. Trinitarians understand Jesus preexisted as the Angel Of YHWH but make the mistake of seeing him as ANOTHER distinct God person. They teach that is the second person of the Trinity.

Biblical Oneness understands although the Logos was WITH GOD as his visible image God himself was the one in the image.

In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God and God was {the} Logos. John 1:1

So can you see what Jesus was thinking about when he prayed AS A MAN to return to the glory he had in the beginning with God?

He asked God to glorify him WITH HIS OWN SELF with the glory he had before the world was.

The glory of God WAS HIS OWN SELF just in visible form!

Before Bethlehem when the Logos was with God he was with him as the Angel Of THE LORD.

To Israel the ANGEL OF YHWH was YHWH. Their God.

8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. Zech. 12:8

The Angel and THE GOD were one yet living in two modes of existing. One as omni present spirit the other as a form for YHWHS eternal life to be expressed to creation.

When Jesus returned to Heaven as a glorified man he is now AS A MAN still the one visible manifestation of God.

Paul never mentions the Trinity but he mentions one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Tim. 2:5

So in summation in the OT the one God had an image called the Angel of the Lord or the glory of the Lord.

In the New Testament the one God has one visible image the man Christ Jesus.

In both scenarios it is YHWH existing in two modes of being.

The glory Jesus had with God before the world was...was as the GLORY OF YHWH. He has been restored to the same.

Praxeas · #**177** 11-12-2011, 02:13 PM

In the context of Jn 17 Jesus speaks of the glory he will give his disciples too. John said we don't know yet what we will be but when we see him we will be like him (paraphrase)