Does a Woman letting her hair down summon the power of angels?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy

I think I see: you take those verses as a kind of parenthetical insert in the midst of Paul's discussion about covered heads for women and uncovered heads for men?

Even if these verses do not directly speak to the hair subject, they do pertain to the greater subject of the entire first part of I Corinthians 11, that subject being headship and honoring or dishonoring one's head.

I don't see why it is somehow a doctrine that 'doesn't make sense for the black woman, for the most part'. Uncut is uncut, plain and simple.

Yes, I do believe that they do pertain to the greater subject - headship!

Which, throws the "power" thing out of the window and not only because it doesn't even mean "miraculous power".

It doesn't make sense, for the black women, simply because the word for long is "tresses" and she cannot have that without extensions, for the most part. She is unable to have hair that drapes her like a mantel, which "covering"- "peribolaion" conveys.

Therefore, the admonition doesn't seem to be a universal teaching, but possibly something cultural, which still conveys a principle - headship.

I say the "cultural" because the writer also, in a few verses down, addresses their misuse of the Lord's supper. The gluttony was a pagan practice and therefore, we have to assume that something about the women and their hair and headship is amiss also, IMO.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Felicity

I'm interested in what kind of response you got when you raised your voice. And what kind of response you expected when you just talked.

Personally, I like response when I speak. Not "screaming jumping to your feet" response, but just to know that they're getting what I'm saying and that I can see I'm keeping their interest.

I do believe that some of the response we get in Pentecostal circles is somewhat trained but it's not all bad either. There's a point at which it can become a problem.

I know that some people in churches don't like people jumping to their feet during the preaching or even during worship. They say "there's no need for that" but at the same time I think people should feel free to respond as long as it's done decently and in order.

Pentecost has a worship culture of it's own, no doubt about that.

They seemed more inclined to get into the meeting at that point and I was very disheartened by it.

I have been trained in this way and one time I was very frustrated in my private prayer and began to clap really loud and praise the Lord very loud - lol.

I then stopped and said, "Oh, forget it." I knelt by the bed and said, very quietly, "Jesus, I love you." The Holy Ghost filled that room and I had a wonderful time in prayer.

He isn't motivated by the level of noise we make, but when He is present we will probably make some noise.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

They seemed more inclined to get into the meeting at that point and I was very disheartened by it.

I have been trained in this way and one time I was very frustrated in my private prayer and began to clap really loud and praise the Lord very loud - lol.

I then stopped and said, "Oh, forget it." I knelt by the bed and said, very quietly, "Jesus, I love you." The Holy Ghost filled that room and I had a wonderful time in prayer.

He isn't motivated by the level of noise we make, but when He is present we will probably make some noise.

I understand what you're saying.

Did you raise your voice as a test -- to see what the response would be? Or did you raise your voice just because you were getting into what you were speaking? It's only natural that when a speaker becomes more passionate about what he or she is saying at any given point that very likely there will be a greater response that follows the greater emphasis of the speaker's words, tone of voice or body language.

I couldn't just speak in a monotone for 20 or 30 minutes -- certainly not if I was delivering a message I had any conviction about at all.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I agree and I just can't stand it!!! It seems to be encouraged. I'm for a sweet gentle spirit to come in and do a work. I don't need loud music, yelling or baiting.

You know I was at a Ladies Retreat and the speaker was actually yelling and telling the women when and how to respond. She was being praised as having a big move of God, but really, the people were coerced into responding. They weren't allowed to feel after the Spirit to see if these things be of God.

And while I'm on my soapbox I wonder if you have experienced this. I had to speak to a group of women and I noticed that if I raised my voice a little that they would respond, but if I just talked to them they wouldn't do anything. I was very, very disheartened to see this happening as I would have liked them to be trained to respond to what I said and not how I said it.

I'm afraid this is a widespread thing and that is when deception can rule the day! JMHO.

I only desire that the individual directing the service be sensitive to the Holy Ghost. If he/she is, then there is no need for coercion or 'cheerleading'. I have experienced the yelling and the forced directing of the ladies in a conference, and I wasn't impressed.

As for your experience with speaking to a group of ladies, I am sorry your's wasn't so good. I have been blessed in that the ladies I speak to are those in my local church, and I don't have to holler, because they watch my life, and they know that if Sister Murphy is teaching/preaching/exhorting, it is for real and serious. Once not too long ago, I actually stepped down off the platform while exhorting during a song we were singing, and got a little excited about the message of stepping out by faith, even while the storm is raging. Some of those dear sisters were startled, as that is not normally my style! But, that is how the Holy Ghost was moving, for that particular instance, so I needed to be sensitive and follow.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Felicity

I understand what you're saying.

Did you raise your voice as a test -- to see what the response would be? Or did you raise your voice just because you were getting into what you were speaking? It's only natural that when a speaker becomes more passionate about what he or she is saying at any given point that very likely there will be a greater response that follows the greater emphasis of the speaker's words, tone of voice or body language.

I couldn't just speak in a monotone for 20 or 30 minutes -- certainly not if I was delivering a message I had any conviction about at all.

I did it as a test and almost felt forced to do it for their sakes. I hated that and vowed to never do it again.

Well, I don't have a monotone voice and my nature is to be a bit dramatic when I'm into something, but raising my voice unnecessarily didn't make me happy, to say the least.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy

I only desire that the individual directing the service be sensitive to the Holy Ghost. If he/she is, then there is no need for coercion or 'cheerleading'. I have experienced the yelling and the forced directing of the ladies in a conference, and I wasn't impressed.

As for your experience with speaking to a group of ladies, I am sorry your's wasn't so good. I have been blessed in that the ladies I speak to are those in my local church, and I don't have to holler, because they watch my life, and they know that if Sister Murphy is teaching/preaching/exhorting, it is for real and serious. Once not too long ago, I actually stepped down off the platform while exhorting during a song we were singing, and got a little excited about the message of stepping out by faith, even while the storm is raging. Some of those dear sisters were startled, as that is not normally my style! But, that is how the Holy Ghost was moving, for that particular instance, so I needed to be sensitive and follow.

Well, I didn't holler and never did have to raise my voice like that again, although it wasn't that loud, but it may have just been a lesson for me to not fall into that type of trap. It was a short lesson and one I won't be soon to forget.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Sister Murphy

I only desire that the individual directing the service be sensitive to the Holy Ghost. If he/she is, then there is no need for coercion or 'cheerleading'. I have experienced the yelling and the forced directing of the ladies in a conference, and I wasn't impressed.

I totally agree. But I also don't mind when the speaker raises her voice a little or becomes somewhat demonstrative because of the fact she's speaking with emphasis and passion.

Some of what I'm seeing in regard to the way women are acting though bothers me.

I was at some services a few months back and I had never seen so much "women jumping to their feet" and women screaming and yelling at one time or in one place ever before.

I was just home (back to my home district) to campmeeting services and though I saw women worshiping and praying and seeking God and being attentive and responsive to the preaching I didn't see all this jumping to their feet and no screaming and yelling. The women acted like ladies and were responsive but sensible.

I love the moving of the Holy Ghost. I love the freedom we have in our worship services. I love response to the moving of the Spirit. I don't mind people being encouraged to reach out, to shut themselves in with the Lord, to praise the Lord and to focus their attention on Him, but I love it when the Holy Ghost moves in and takes over a service without people being whipped into a frenzy by manipulation.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Felicity

I totally agree. But I also don't mind when the speaker raises her voice a little or becomes somewhat demonstrative because of the fact she's speaking with emphasis and passion.

Some of what I'm seeing in regard to the way women are acting though bothers me.

I was at some services a few months back and I had never seen so much "women jumping to their feet" and women screaming and yelling at one time or in one place ever before.

I was just home (back to my home district) to campmeeting services and though I saw women worshiping and praying and seeking God and being attentive and responsive to the preaching I didn't see all this jumping to their feet and no screaming and yelling. The women acted like ladies and were responsive but sensible.

I love the moving of the Holy Ghost. I love the freedom we have in our worship services. I love response to the moving of the Spirit. I don't mind people being encouraged to reach out, to shut themselves in with the Lord, to praise the Lord and to focus their attention on Him, but I love it when the Holy Ghost moves in and takes over a service without people being whipped into a frenzy by manipulation.

The meeting I was talking to RM about, the woman was yelling, "STAND TO YOUR FEET AND SAY PRAISE THE LORD, ETC."

I was standing and looking around - amazed.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

The meeting I was talking to RM about, the woman was yelling, "STAND TO YOUR FEET AND SAY PRAISE THE LORD, ETC."

I was standing and looking around - amazed.

Amazed? This is pretty standard in Pentecostal circles really and has been going on for a long time. Some people would never worship if they weren't encouraged a little bit. Not saying I don't get the point you're making because I do but still .... not all the coaching is bad. There are some people who receive a blessing or an answer just because they did what the preacher asked them to do when they may have just been content to sit and not reach out and miss out on what God had for them.

I totally balk though at this hair whipping thing and women taking their hair down in worship. To me that is not decent or in order. JMO.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Amazed? This is pretty standard in Pentecostal circles really and has been going on for a long time. Some people would never worship if they weren't encouraged a little bit. Not saying I don't get the point you're making because I do but still .... not all the coaching is bad. There are some people who receive a blessing or an answer just because they did what the preacher asked them to do when they may have just been content to sit and not reach out and miss out on what God had for them.

I totally balk though at this hair whipping thing and women taking their hair down in worship. To me that is not decent or in order. JMO.

I agree that, sometimes, the coaching is not bad, but when people are trained to respond to "how" you said something and not "what" you said, there's the travesty.

You can tell the difference.

I don't agree with training people to have confidence in anything and that includes "prayer cloths".