The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by mfblume

What about 1 Cor 9?

1 Corinthians 9:4-15.. Have we not power to eat and to drink? ..(5).. Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? ..(6).. Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? ..(7).. Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

Above Paul said that people are supported in the ministry just as the one who feeds the flock can live from the milk involved in his work. Who goes to war at his own out of pocket expense?


..(8).. Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? ..(9).. For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?


He said that an ox ate of the very same corn he tread while he worked. The ox did not go to other sources of food other than the food that was provided to him where he tread.


..(10).. Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. ..(11).. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

Reaping carnal things is whatever it takes to live provided by the people to whom he ministered.


..(12).. If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

This is the reason Paul said he did not take incomce in money or food or whatever from the churches as your references above indicate. It was not because he should not do it. It was because he did not want the touchy people to accuse him of anything, when he had the full right to take support from them.

In other words, he said believers should support ministers, but he abrogated that RIGHT when he di not have to.


..(13).. Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? ..(14).. Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. ..(15).. But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

Again he said it was his right to be supported by the people only he exempted himself. ANd we cannot turn around and say that we should follow Pual and God expects us to follow Paul and exempt ourselves of that right when the whole point in this chapter is that it is a right to be supported.

Again, read that chapter. It's a RIGHT. ANd Paul merely stepped away from that right and he would not have said it was a right if he meant no one should NOT exempt themselves.

Brother Blume,

In this chapter, Paul quotes the law of Moses. The tithe law is part of the law of Moses. So, while Paul is quoting the law of Moses, he talks about the ox? This is a very poor example for you to use if you are advocating for a tithe being available for pastors. The important similarity that you and Paul have is that you, Paul and the ox are just alike in one wise, none of you are entitled to tithes, according to the law of Moses that Paul is quoting.

The passage does not change anything regarding a pastor being entitled to tithes. If anything it reinforces my position. Here we have Paul, who is very well educated in the law, quoting the law, and talking about the ox.

Why didn’t Paul refer to the tithe law, instead of talking about the comparatively vague law about the ox?

Was he known for being timid?

Was he afraid to speak his mind?

We know Paul knew the law, he was not afraid to speak his mind, yet he didn’t say, “pastors are eligible to receive tithes, according to the law”. He said instead, that the Mosaic law forbids muzzling the ox that treads the corn. Because Paul was like you Brother Blume, in that he was not eligible to receive tithes according to the law that he is quoting. And Paul, Brother Blume, was no hypocrite. And it would be the very epitome of hypocrisy for him to quote the law of Moses regarding tithes, when he (like you), had no right to tithes under that same law. Paul was a Benjamite, Brother Blume. As a Benjamite, he was ineligible to receive tithes under the law that he is quoting. So he draws a comparison to the ox. The ox wasn’t eligible for tithes either, under the law (again, like you). He could eat all he wanted, the Mosaic law granted him the right. But the ox couldn’t take anything home to the stall. He couldn’t put it in the bank. The law didn’t give him the right to receive tithes. Because the ox was no Levite. Anymore than Paul was a Levite. Or Brother Blume is a Levite.

I have not once said, nor do I believe, that being a pastor excludes you from support from the church. The issue is tithes. And tithes didn’t go on the altar. The general tithe didn’t go to the temple either. Remember, the tithe went to the forty eight cities of tillage. There was only one temple.

So, once more. Quote scripture that you, as a pastor, are entitled to tithes. Paul was quoting Mosaic law. Follow his example that YOU quoted in Corinthians, and show me where the law entitles you to a tithe. It doesn’t entitle you Brother Blume. The law excludes you, as it did Paul as well.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by mfblume

BUMP

Brother Blume,

You asked about widows being eligible for tithes in the Bible. I gave you the scriptural example of the Old Testament. Then you asked for a New Testament example.

Acts.6

[1] And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

Did you ever wonder why the Grecian widows were neglected? I have. The Hebrew widows were getting taken care of, but the Grecian widows weren’t.

It is not spelled out specifically in the Bible why this is so. But allow me to give you my theory. The Hebrew widows were provided for by the Mosaic tithing law, which the Jerusalem church was still following. The Mosaic tithing law did NOT provide for Grecian widows though. Hence the murmuring mentioned above.

So, what did the church do? They arranged to take care of the widows.

[2] Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
[3] Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

The apostles appointed no less than seven men of wisdom, and full of the Holy Ghost, to take care of the widows, that were not eligible to receive tithes (just like you are ineligible to receive tithes). The Grecian widows were taken care of by the church, the Hebrew widows were taken care of by the tithe. All of the widows were taken care of. According to the New Testament example found in Acts.

I’m still waiting for your scripture that says that you (as a pastor) are in any way entitled to tithes.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I dont believe Votivesoul is writing no minister should be full time ministry. He’s just giving his opinion why you can work 40-50 hours a week and still be a full time minister. Your absolutely right to want your Pastor to be full time, thats how I wanted my Pastor to be when I was a saint in a church! I didnt want my Pastor working 8-10 hrs for “the man” and then getting off, then go tend to the needs of the church.

While I am saying just that, I am saying something more, too. I am saying a man should not separate his work from his ministry, or treat one as secular and one as sacred. It is all sacred work, and it is all ministry. When Paul abode with Aquila and Priscilla, for they all worked in leather tent-making, what do you suppose they did together all day beside make tents? I think we can rest assured they talked together about the Lord, broke bread together, probably prayed with each other, and witnessed on the streets where they sold their handmade products.

And after the day was done, they gathered with the believers from around the city and shared the Gospel night after night with as many as wanted to hear it. I think we can rightly say people they met during the day likely came to hear them preach at night. This all transpired in Corinth, the city where Jesus told Paul he had many people and so, he could preach the Gospel freely and with boldness. There was a great revival there. Paul stayed for 18 months. That's the longest Paul stayed anywhere. How did that revival happen? Because Paul and Aquila set aside so-called secular work so they could minister full-time? Not a chance. It happened because they didn't hinder the Gospel by demanding funds from the church there to let them off the hook from working.

[Esaias]

Luke 10:2-9 KJV
Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest. [3] Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. [4] Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. [5] And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. [6] And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. [7] And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. [8] And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: [9] And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

It's called taking up your cross.

You and I both know that’s not what that means! If your want to use that verse, then Ill use this one for ministers that want a full time worldly job and while also trying to be a full time minister.

Matthew 6:24-25
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. [25] Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

We should be wanting full time ministry. If your a saint or a preacher, you should desire for your minister to be full time. If your a minister you should be working toward full time ministry. The weights Votivesoul must be talking about is the weight of debt from cars, trucks, high and lofty lifestyles, recreational toys etc... that cause a minister to need a quite a bit of money a month to live.

The cross is the weight and burden of moral responsibility to God and man, to deny yourself and fulfill the commandments of your Savior. That weight and burden takes on many forms, but one of the forms it takes is the moral responsibility of a man to work and provide for himself and his family, with his own hands, from the sweat of his own brow, while fulfilling whatever other callings from God he may have.

It is not serving two masters to work a job and earn an income while also serving in the church as a herald of the Good News.

That is the weight I am talking about. I care not for all the luxuries you mentioned. They can be tossed on the dunghill with all the other, worldly things many ministers think they have a right to have bought and paid for by the wages they get from the church.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Only if you understand that TITHE does not go hand in hand with all the laws about it in the old covenant. But Paul simply stated that the general manner of ministers living of the gospel was the same as priests living of the altar. It's the general aspect, not the split hairs of exactly how that's done. The New Testament does not get into anything more than ministers being able to be supported by offerings from the believers. That's what it meant by not muzzling the ox while he treads the corn.

Brother Blume,

Does Paul mention tithes at all in this chapter? You seem to think I’m splitting hairs. But it strikes me as hypocrisy to quote the law to establish a right, only to discard the same law, when it excludes you from receiving tithes.

Paul wasn’t establishing a right for non Levites to receive tithes. That would have been CONTRARY to the law. Nor was he establishing a responsibility for Gentiles or Christians to pay tithes. Again, this would have been contrary to the law. He was saying, it is the right of the minister of God to eat and drink of offerings from a church.

Paul really was not even speaking as a pastor in this passage. He was speaking specifically as an apostle. As he makes clear.

There were twelve apostles in the Jerusalem church. Paul was asserting that he was an apostle, as much as the other twelve. He wasn’t asserting that he was a pastor or elder. He was referring to his position as an apostle.

Don’t you agree?

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Luke 10:2-9 KJV
Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest. [3] Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. [4] Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. [5] And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. [6] And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. [7] And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. [8] And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: [9] And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Glad to read your back!

[loran adkins]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Like I said the Pastor is not forcing them to pay a 10% tithe. If they don't want to pay that, they are more than welcome to go somewhere else. I don't know a Pastor that knows what everyone in the assembly makes to make sure there giving their 10%, do you?

So you don't think that to say if you don't do this you are going to hell and you are in rebelling to the pastor, is being compulsory?

[coksiw]

We keep discussing this topic, and people keep hardening their heart, but there is only one truth. I don't know how some can teach tithing as an obedience issue for the church when it is obviously not there.

Teaching the Word of God is not a game, there are implications to the teacher.

[2Ti 2:15 NKJV] Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[Michael The Disciple]

Paul really was not even speaking as a pastor in this passage. He was speaking specifically as an apostle. As he makes clear.

There were twelve apostles in the Jerusalem church. Paul was asserting that he was an apostle, as much as the other twelve. He wasn’t asserting that he was a pastor or elder. He was referring to his position as an apostle.

A good job of rightly dividing the word of truth. He establishes the truth that Apostles do have the God given right to receive offerings.
He also establishes the truth that he would rather die than seem to be abusing this right and rejoices he can preach the gospel for free!

Meanwhile over in Acts 20 he charges the Pastors/Elders to work with their own hands.

While mixing in the truth from Galatians 6 and 1 Timothy 5 that the saints have a duty and responsibility to give to the ministry.