Where exactly the UPCI got tithing from?

[Tithesmeister]

Coksiw (and others). Since you seem to have tracked the UPCI tithe doctrine to the Church of God in Cleveland TN, I ran across this short video about that church’s early leadership and beliefs. You may find it relevant.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Are you under the assumption that he believes the doctrine of tithing to be unbiblical? You bring up a very good point. Maybe this is a problem we all have. We assume, that everyone sees things in the Bible as being crystal clear. That everyone who doesn't have the same epiphany as we do to be dishonest. Unless you have held a discussion with this man over a series of hours, you cannot form an "opinion" on an idea that he is a reprobate.

Other than the brother coming out and making a statement on whether he believes or doesn't believe we have to accepted his statement. In Mormonism there is a term among Mormons "Shadow Mormon" this is an individual who attends the LDS but doesn't believe in the teachings. Every religion under the sun has shadow followers. Their reasons go from simple to complicated.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about sincere hearted people from the pulpit to the pew. Who sincerely believe what they believe. We can't call them liars, because they are not intentionally lying as far as they are concerned. Again a teaching my be plain to you, and you understand it enough to teach it in your sleep. But others just don't get it.

Well? Here’s the man of the hour explaining the UPCI doctrine of tithing. Watch and listen then let’s continue the discussion. What do y’all think? DKB in his own words.

https://youtu.be/9_jgPKW7bWM?si=Z6gvZ_2tn3iW6hxc

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Well? Here’s the man of the hour explaining the UPCI doctrine of tithing. Watch and listen then let’s continue the discussion. What do y’all think? DKB in his own words.

https://youtu.be/9_jgPKW7bWM?si=Z6gvZ_2tn3iW6hxc

"First off, the Bible says 100% belongs to God..."
Acts5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.


Id like to challenge the idea that "100% belongs to God" on the basis that under the actual judgement of God over the sale of property, it was against not withholding what was Gods but on the dishonesty. It is literally declared in the text that what they had was theirs under the unction of the Spirit so it seems while the Lord does indeed "own" the Earth, He does seem to recognize personal possession of goods and finances.


Wanna argue, go talk with Peter and the Holy Ghost.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

"First off, the Bible says 100% belongs to God..."
Acts5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.


Id like to challenge the idea that "100% belongs to God" on the basis that under the actual judgement of God over the sale of property, it was against not withholding what was Gods but on the dishonesty. It is literally declared in the text that what they had was theirs under the unction of the Spirit so it seems while the Lord does indeed "own" the Earth, He does seem to recognize personal possession of goods and finances.


Wanna argue, go talk with Peter and the Holy Ghost.

Amen. I had that same thought. If 100% belongs to God, wouldn’t you be robbing Him to keep 90%?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Coksiw (and others). Since you seem to have tracked the UPCI tithe doctrine to the Church of God in Cleveland TN, I ran across this short video about that church’s early leadership and beliefs. You may find it relevant.

Interesting video. That's new to me.

I am not tracing UPCI tithing to the Church of God, but rather that the writings of the Church of God regarding how they adopted tithing reflects the thoughts of the time, which were likely to be also in the UPCI. But the actual UPCI tithing implementation might have come from other sources unrelated to the Church of God (e.g., another minister pushing for it within the org when split from AoG or united with the PAW).

[Esaias]

Not sure if this was already covered.

The Apostolic Faith Mission at Azusa Street was connected to the Pentecostal Church of the Nazarene (they later dropped the term Pentecostal to avoid being confused with the "tongue-talkers"). Many of the early ministers at Azusa had come from the Nazarene denomination or from other related Holiness groups.

The 1905 Manual of the Church of the Nazarene on page 33 specifies weekly collections using "the tithing principle" as the "best if not obligatory" manner of supporting the ministry. So weekly collection of tithes was well known to the Nazarene and other Holiness groups at the time. Since many early 20th century Pentecostals were Holiness people and ministers they would have carried that concept with them.

Here is a link to the Manual: ---> https://whdl.org/en/browse/resources/13166
Page 33 in the original is page 34 of the pdf file.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Coksiw (and others). Since you seem to have tracked the UPCI tithe doctrine to the Church of God in Cleveland TN...

The UPC was formed in 1945 by a merger of two denominations (Pentecostal Church Incorporated and the Pentecostal Assemblies of Jesus Christ). Both of those groups were themselves the products of several mergers of other Oneness Pentecostal denominations, many of which came out of the split in the Assemblies of God. The Church of God (Cleveland) never was with the AoG and never really was part of the Oneness group of churches.

Although all Pentecostal denominations were familiar with each other back in the day I don't think the UPCI got tithing from the CoG.

[Esaias]

G. T. Haywood wrote in 1924 about how he came to preach tithing:

"It was on Sunday morning at the “five o’clock prayer meeting” that the word of the Lord came to me saying, “You must speak on tithes and offering this morning”. As I remained on my knees with about twelve of our little band of thirty saints, I plead with God to relieve me of the matter. To speak about money, I felt would be my ruin. I had preached for nearly three years without mentioning it. How can I do it now. The only text that I knew on the subject was “Will a Man Rob God?” I wept before God as I continued pleading to be relieved. Finally he showed me that I was keeping the people from a blessing."

Haywood was leader of the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World (PAW) from 1925-1931. The Pentecostal Assemblies of Jesus Christ (PAJC - one of the 2 denominations that formed the UPCI in 1945) was created in 1931 when the PAW merged with the Apostolic Churches of Jesus Christ).

So it seems as if the UPCI got tithing from Haywood as far as a "direct line".

Haywood's 1924 article: ---> https://www.apostolicarchives.com/ar...121/172463.htm

History of PAW, PAJC, UPCI: ---> https://www.apostolicarchives.com/ar...236/172432.htm

[Esaias]

E. N. Bell, in the Feb 19, 1916 edition of the Pentecostal Evangel (the official publication of the Assemblies of God) wrote an answer to the question of whether tithing is obligatory for the church. He answered that it seems to be so. (page 8, Questions and Answers): ---> https://archives.ifphc.org/DigitalPu...1916_02_19.pdf

So the AoG ŵas promoting tithing in 1916 at least. Since the UPC came about as a result of mergers of groups that had come out of the AoG it is likely the tithe-line runs from the AoG to Haywood and the PAW/PAJC to the UPCI.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Not sure if this was already covered.

The Apostolic Faith Mission at Azusa Street was connected to the Pentecostal Church of the Nazarene (they later dropped the term Pentecostal to avoid being confused with the "tongue-talkers"). Many of the early ministers at Azusa had come from the Nazarene denomination or from other related Holiness groups.

The 1905 Manual of the Church of the Nazarene on page 33 specifies weekly collections using "the tithing principle" as the "best if not obligatory" manner of supporting the ministry. So weekly collection of tithes was well known to the Nazarene and other Holiness groups at the time. Since many early 20th century Pentecostals were Holiness people and ministers they would have carried that concept with them.

Here is a link to the Manual: ---> https://whdl.org/en/browse/resources/13166
Page 33 in the original is page 34 of the pdf file.

Further, the former Baptist William Durham, upon becoming a Pentecostal as a result of Azusa Street, shortly afterwards began teaching "Finished Work" sanctification (aka sanctification need not be a second post-conversion experience but can happen whenever the believer exercises faith for it). This created the rift between the Wesleyan Pentecostals (Azusa Street, Church of God, and associated groups) and what would become the AoG who followed Durham's theology.

The Baptists had been doing tithing in the 1800s apparently, so again the AoG likely got the idea from the influx of Baptists and their ecclesiology. As already mentioned the Wesleyans were tithing as well so it was already pretty established in that quarter.

BUT the fact that everybody was talking about it indicates it was always a controversial subject with disagreements galore among preachers and churches.