Are Trinitarians Saved?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
John 9:41 KJV

So which are you Jason?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Same way anyone gets saved, by the work of the Spirit opening my eyes to my own sinfulness, the righteousness of God in condemning me to hell, my own hopelessness and beggarly condition, and I repented of my sons, and trusted in Christ. That's how I was saved.

Ok, I have my answer, you claim you see.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Same way anyone gets saved, by the work of the Spirit opening my eyes to my own sinfulness, the righteousness of God in condemning me to hell, my own hopelessness and beggarly condition, and I repented of my sons, and trusted in Christ. That's how I was saved.

Now I was also told to be baptized a certain way, and as a repentant sinner, I couldn't get in the water fast enough. Then I was told to seek the Spirit which I did. Then I was told to live a holy life, keep the standards, pay tithes, etc. Which I did, thinking that failure to do these things would jeopardize my salvation.

As years went by and I matured and came to realize that my salvation was all of Christ. If I must do xyz and continue doing xyz to "stay saved", then I was in fact trusting in my own self righteousness, not in Christ. As Paul said, I was a Pharisee of Pharisees, as Luther said "if a man could be saved by his own monkery, I was he", so if lining up a Pentecostal experience and strict standards was what necessary, few attained my level of faithfulness, obedience, and Pentecostalism.

But in time as the greatness of Christ's righteousness and the manifold effects of the atonement became clear to me, I trusted no more in myself, but only in Him. (This is what EB calls "confusion").

So, yes, I was saved when I repented and believed the gospel. Just because I grew in my faith, doesn't mean I wasn't saved in the first place. I would argue, that growth, maturity, and understanding are evidence of a continuing work of God.

So, you got saved without knowing you got saved? Or, you got saved a different way than you believed you got saved?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So, you got saved without knowing you got saved? Or, you got saved a different way than you believed you got saved?

I definitely knew I "got saved". How would anyone get saved without knowing it? The command is "repent and believe the gospel." Jesus said "count the cost." I don't believe anyone can come to Christ without a full understanding of the basics of the gospel. (I'm a sinner, Christ died in my place, I submit to His as Lord,etc).

Now then, like many new converts, coming out of the world with no church background to speak of, I was a blank canvas. Immediately I began attending all 3 weekly services, plus youth rallies, and prayer. On Thursday nights my wife &I had one on one Bible Study with the pastor. The church was only about 15 people, and we were new and hungry, so we went through all the resources of the time, often with the pastor and his wife. First was "Rightly dividing the Word by Larry Smith.". Then the word aflame "Why do Pentecostals do....why don't Pentecostals do....". Then Into His Marvelous light. Every Ruth Reider book and video. The wedding dress Bible study video, Exploring God's Word, and Search for Truth #2. Then the ministerial required reading list. So yeah, within a year and a half, I was pretty much had very rigid, in some ways, legalistic views about Christian living and even salvation. As a new convert I ate what I was fed, soaked up what I was given as a sponge, as if the very words of God.

But in time, as I studied God's Word, I came to a more accurate understanding of what had happened to me, and what God expects of me, rather than the UPC.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jason B

I definitely knew I "got saved". How would anyone get saved without knowing it? The command is "repent and believe the gospel." Jesus said "count the cost." I don't believe anyone can come to Christ without a full understanding of the basics of the gospel. (I'm a sinner, Christ died in my place, I submit to His as Lord,etc).

Now then, like many new converts, coming out of the world with no church background to speak of, I was a blank canvas. Immediately I began attending all 3 weekly services, plus youth rallies, and prayer. On Thursday nights my wife &I had one on one Bible Study with the pastor. The church was only about 15 people, and we were new and hungry, so we went through all the resources of the time, often with the pastor and his wife. First was "Rightly dividing the Word by Larry Smith.". Then the word aflame "Why do Pentecostals do....why don't Pentecostals do....". Then Into His Marvelous light. Every Ruth Reider book and video. The wedding dress Bible study video, Exploring God's Word, and Search for Truth #2. Then the ministerial required reading list. So yeah, within a year and a half, I was pretty much had very rigid, in some ways, legalistic views about Christian living and even salvation. As a new convert I ate what I was fed, soaked up what I was given as a sponge, as if the very words of God.

But in time, as I studied God's Word, I came to a more accurate understanding of what had happened to me, and what God expects of me, rather than the UPC.

What I am saying is this: you got saved at a church that preaches the new birth of water and Spirit. The preaching you heard, was it not along the lines of "Repent, and be baptised in Jesus name for the remission of sins, and receive the Holy Ghost"? So you responded to that, correct? So, in your mind, you would not have been "saved" until you had obeyed Acts 2:38, right?

But then, later on, years later, you come to the conclusion you were saved differently than you originally thought? That you were saved at some point before your baptism?

OR, in the beginning, did you believe you were saved when you initially repented, before you were baptised? and then over time came to believe in the new birth of water and Spirit? and then, some time later, changed back to your original belief?

See, that's why I am not understanding this. You say "how can one get saved and not know it?" so that suggests that when you got saved (apart from a full Acts 2:38 experience?) you knew it, you knew it right then. So my question would be how is it you became convinced of the "standard Acts 2:38 salvation scheme" to begin with? Did you get saved, knew you got saved, then became convinced you needed to follow through with the whole Acts 2:38 deal, and accepted THAT belief for awhile, then went back to your original understanding?

I'm not trying to be dense, I'm just trying to understand.

[Strict Baptist]

Most interesting data assuredly...

[Strict Baptist]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Because EB feels the need to totally denigrate me, and because in some ways I leave myself open to the body blows he lays on me, in that I as a oneness believer, attend a Trinitarian church, I feel it useful to the reader to give an explanation.

I was saved in January 2000 in a very conservative UPC church. I remained a member until 2008, when I moved 40 miles away and ended up joining the only apostolic church in the county*. It was an independent holiness church. Long story short after 2 years there, and preaching weekly and studying, and 10 years in the conservative apostolic movement, I came to the conclusion that a man was justified by faith, not by works, and not by the 3 step formula we are prone to affirm. I left this church in June of 2010 due to a change in view on soteriology, not theology. Essentially I went from being a “3 stepper” to a “1 stepper” (I don’t like these terms, but that will help clarify for those who read here).

Upon this happening, my previous pastor contacted me, visited my home, and we discussed doctrine and church philosophy for hours. He informed me he had turned in his card, and asked for my assistance with the church. I was pleased to help, and started July 2010. This seemed great. A oneness church, baptizing in Jesus name, affirming the gifts of the Spirit, and justification by faith. But after a year I was uncomfortable with the direction of that church. Not in core doctrine, but in philosophy. The church was moving very much into the seeker sensitive realm, along with a growing influence of TBN like prosperity gospel. Towards the end of my time there, it was said from the pulpit that the message that was being preached was the same as what Joel Osteen was preaching, just a different style of delivery. I was driving an hour to attend and help here, and I just couldn’t do it anymore. I felt like the benefits of having the right beliefs on paper didn’t outweigh what I was observing, and the shift the church was making.

So I decided to stop the 1 hour one way drive to church and join something local. This was July 2011. There was only one apostolic church in the entire county, and it was the one I had left in 2010 (the pastor preached against me for 6 months, and prophesied that I would lose my marriage, kids, and even later on, be killed by God), so this wasn’t an option, and there was still the soteriological issue. Thus we visited a few churches, but out there, it’s a few mainline denominations (Baptist of about 6 flavors, church of Christ, Methodist, and catholic) then several word of faith churches (this area is only about 30 miles from Kenneth Copeland headquarters), and a few seeker sensitive churches. Basically for anything even half conservative, you choose from fundamental Baptist or a Bible church.

Long store short, we choose the Bible church, in August 2012. It had a refreshing emphasis on Christ, His Word, and Christian living. I didn’t share that I had been in ministry. We just came to hear the Word, and be in a church somewhere. Again, to cut to the chase, after about 8 months there, the church had a split, the Calvinist group left, the non calvisinist, who were the original occupants of the building stayed. I stayed, and we worked out a statement of faith which I had much influence on. Because of the split we wanted it to be true to the Word of God, but allow freedom of conscious. (The split was because the Calvinist insisted everyone adopt a Calvinist view or be barred from being a member or in ministry). At this time I had not preached here, but had befriended the pastor. (I will post the statement of faith in the following post). The statement of faith was oneness in nature, and affirmed baptism in Jesus name. After this split, I began to fill in when the pastor would travel (he had a orphanage in India, and was working on a Chinese Bible translation). He traveled more and more often, and I began taking on more of a responsibility for the church. Over the course of a year it happened that I became pastor.

I pastored here for 3 years. April 2013 to April 2016. In the last year and a half we unexpectedly began to foster a 13 month old boy, then 6 months later his 4 year old brother was placed with us. The 4 year old had leukemia, and was undergoing chemo treatments. All of this was a major adjustment for our household, plus having a family, 2 teenage children, and a full time job. After about 10 months of having both boys, and not feeling like I could devote the necessary focus and energy on the church, I resigned the pastorate. (We did eventually successfully adopt both children, and it has been a great blessing to our home to have them here, and a ministry to the Lord, to raise them up to serve Him, considering their former circumstances).

We then had need to find a church, and we choose to drive again. We visited a UPC for several weeks, but I couldn’t feel comfortable joining because of a difference in soteriology. EB paints me as someone who hates the UPC, is mad and bitter, etc. The facts is, I left because of a doctrinal view, not personal reasons. If the UPC adopted justification by faith, or if I found a UPC church that allowed some freedom in this area, I’d seriously consider joining. The issue is doctrinal.

So then we tried another church, a well known oneness minister in the Fort Worth area who recently “left” the UC OP ranks. But after a couple of visits, I was concerned by the influence of the seeker sensitive movement, and the way that Bill Johnson and Steven Furtick are quoted as some type of church gurus. It may seem weird to some that I attend a Trinitarian church, but when the rubber meets the road, I’d rather have a strong Bible believing conservative church, where the Bible is exposited, and the focus is solely on the glory of God, than a oneness church that doesn’t even have a pulpit, but starbucks like table, and where Steven Furtick is an authority on church philosophy. Count me out.

So then in August of 2016 I ended up attending a Trinitarian Bible church. I continue to do so until this day, yet I am not a member of this church. I do agree with them on soteriology, and the inerrancy and authority of the Word, along with tithing, and holy living. I don’t agree with the Trinitarian doctrine, nor cessationism.

On March 1st, I moved back into the D/FW metroplex, and so my options for churches are going to be wide open. I would assume I can find a oneness church that believes justification by faith. But the problem is that, at least in my limited experience, there is a tendency of former oneness churches to actually go down the proverbial slippery slope, and they become uber charismatic, prosperity gospel, seeker sensitive, Bethel, Gateway, Lakewood knock offs with a hint of their former oneness theology in the background, and sadly, many times embrace a very worldly pseudo Christian culture. I am not interested in being a part of one of these type oneness churches, just to silence criticism.

So I write this to give a brief explanation of what I believe (oneness theology, justification by faith soteriology), show how inaccurate EBs constant barrage of insults are, and to give an explanation of why I go to church where I do.

Now then, I am quite comfortable allowing God to work all things out in my life according to His good purpose.
Doing so also has given me a lot of real interaction with both sides. I do find myself defending Trinitarians to oneness people, as I’ve come to know many true brothers and sisters who are Trinitarians. And I do find myself defending oneness people to Trinitarians, who are often quite uninformed of what oneness people truly believe.

I don’t believe either view point is going to cause a person to be condemned to hell. Both view points affirm one God. Now the Trinitarians can use language that borders on tritheism, and is quite unbiblical (councils of the trinity, referring to God as them, separate persons, etc), and oneness people can borderline heresy through denying the distinctions between Father and Son to the point Jesus’ prayers were just a façade, questionable views of the wills or nature of Christ, or even the divine flesh view. Within both trinitarianism and oneness there are errant views held, and neither view is monolithic. However, the common lay person on either side, affirms the basics of the faith, that there is one God, Jesus is the Son of God, fully human and fully divine, the Holy Spirit regenerates us, we must repent of our sins, and trust in the atonement and forgiveness of sins that Christ achieved for us through his perfect sinless life and subsequent substitionary sacrifice through death on the cross, and glorious bodily resurrection. That baptism is a form of obedience to Christ’s command as well as a public declaration of our union with Him, come what may. Most affirm the second coming of Christ, and the establishment of God’s eternal Kingdom wherein dwelleth righteousness. I personally, see no Biblical grounds,
to wholesale condemn all these people to hell.

Yet, EB and Steve Epley are quite quick to do so. You two are mortal men, how greatly you err in pronouncing certain damnation on these people. Don’t you have a shred of humility? Do you not have a sense of your own fallability? Or do you not consider the day of your own death drawing near? Do you even fear God, or must you usurp Him in pride and arrogance, placing yourselves hypothetically on the great white throne?

Your tale is most interesting. Please message me as I would like to know more about it.

[Strict Baptist]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

There is nothing to understand. Jason was confused then, and he is confused now. The people who leave the Apostolic movement and now have the supposed greater understanding? Can’t help themselves from posting on forums to show their open wounds. All the while trying to find more disgruntles to help lick those wounds. When challenged they write long posts to show us that they were once just like us. Sadly it doesn’t help their case but only show how confused, and agenda seeking they always were. Jason Badejo doesn’t get it, but believes everyone needs their eyes open like his? My lands, please re-read his post, does it sound like illuminated vision? Or does it sound like someone with hard feelings who can’t get past his past. Jason, move on, the more you post the more you prove you are toast.

Your camp exists because it anathematized all other Pentecostals and cessationists by not believing in its particular formulas. I see you carry that torch alive and well, even with those of your own fold. Most of my former charismatic affiliations consider me a Christian despite disbelieving nearly all points of their theology. However, when someone makes a clear biblical case for Sola Fide, you with the same papal attitude brush him off as though he does not know better. Habacuc 2.4 is quoted several times in the new covenant as the case for Faith Unaccompanied, but like that little horn before Dr Luther at the 1521 Worms Diet, you will not be persuaded by scripture or reason. Is it any wonder why some want nothing to do with Oneness Pentecostals when they meet with this kind of attitude, but I am somehow a pagan for not agreeing with you who has avoided fighting in this thread, showing more grace to those who curse me than you render to JasonB? Proverbs 17 with Luke 6.36-9 resound from here to Honolulu and from the east to the west!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Yet, EB and Steve Epley are quite quick to do so. You two are mortal men, how greatly you err in pronouncing certain damnation on these people. Don’t you have a shred of humility? Do you not have a sense of your own fallability? Or do you not consider the day of your own death drawing near? Do you even fear God, or must you usurp Him in pride and arrogance, placing yourselves hypothetically on the great white throne?

Badejo, physician heal thyself.

i love it when people like you condemn those who you say condemn others.
Let's see, all Trinitarians are lost. But out of one side of your mouth you ask that my eyes be open to whatever mess you are currently in, and from the other side you curse me on a death bed. As far as Brother Epley, he has been around way longer than you. Hasn't changed, keeps motoring along, while you go after him? Funny, I don't see him post as much as boo devil boo to you. Yet, he is heavy on your mind. Jason, I'll say this again. If I ever left a movement or a religion, I sure wouldn't be posting on their forums wanting them to lick my open wounds. Get help boy, get help.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Strict Baptist

Your camp exists because it anathematized all other Pentecostals and cessationists by not believing in its particular formulas. I see you carry that torch alive and well, even with those of your own fold. Most of my former charismatic affiliations consider me a Christian despite disbelieving nearly all points of their theology. However, when someone makes a clear biblical case for Sola Fide, you with the same papal attitude brush him off as though he does not know better. Habacuc 2.4 is quoted several times in the new covenant as the case for Faith Unaccompanied, but like that little horn before Dr Luther at the 1521 Worms Diet, you will not be persuaded by scripture or reason. Is it any wonder why some want nothing to do with Oneness Pentecostals when they meet with this kind of attitude, but I am somehow a pagan for not agreeing with you who has avoided fighting in this thread, showing more grace to those who curse me than you render to JasonB? Proverbs 17.10-11 with Luke 6.36-9 resound from here to Honolulu!

Particular formulas? If you are indeed a Baptist you baptize in titles, and would never baptize someone speaking the name of Jesus over them. Your Charismatic buddies consider you a Christian because they are just like you. Only they believe in witchcraft being a move of the Spirit. But, please don't be offended, remember you were predestined to have me post all this to you. Also take Jason B with you.