Hebrews 10:14-18 KJV For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (15) Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, (16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (17) And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
You left out 13-14: "For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" The blood of bulls and goats etc did the job, but Christ's blood works even better. (Not sure in what sense it works better, but I suppose we could read between the lines and consider that it was a one-time sacrifice, vs repeated sacrifices. That's better, for sure!) And still, Lev says what it says. Don't tell me I've found a contradiction!
Timmy, I don't think you have found a contradiction
Heb 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
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...Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ...(Acts 20:21)
If you really want a contradiction, God will let you assume one. lol
Hebrews 10:1-3 KJV For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (2) For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. (3) But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Hebrews 10:14 KJV For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Must read the entire treatise. Our very consciences are purged by the blood of Jesus, thus making us complete. The animal sacrifices could not perfect/complete the offerer. So, Christ's sacrifice covered the transgressions that were committed under the old covenant which animal sacrifices could not completely deal with. Therefore, no one was truly forgiven until Christ made atonement.
OK. But making people perfect or complete wasn't the question. It was about forgiveness. It still looks to me like sins were "truly" forgiven via OT offerings (though I'm not sure the difference between "truly forgiven" and just "forgiven").
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Timmy, I don't think you have found a contradiction
Heb 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Would it be a contradiction if I found a scripture that said:
"Animal sacrifices forgave sins"
and another one that said
"Animal sacrifices did not forgive sins"?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I know that people get upset when you say that sins were rolled forward, but that is exactly what it looks like. Timmy, maybe their sins were forgiven in the sense that God didn't hold them against the people, but were covered by the cross at the shedding of Christ's blood.
OK. But making people perfect or complete wasn't the question. It was about forgiveness. It still looks to me like sins were "truly" forgiven via OT offerings (though I'm not sure the difference between "truly forgiven" and just "forgiven").
Look at it this way. If anything was forgiven before the cross, and the NT states the blood of Christ was required for remission of sins, then they were forgiven on the basis that the cross would occur. Hebrews says remission of sins causes sacrifices to cease to be offered as well as saying making people complete causes cessation. Remission of sins is the question, is it not? Hebrews 10 says where remission of sins is there is no more offering for sin.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Well we agree. however if you believe its a promise and God never fails on his promises, then its easier to trust in his promises than to find an animal to sacrifice.
Since you agree that I'm not adding to the scripture, then we're set
Well, I doubt it. Your demands of evidence are WAY different than mine. The main difference is, my theology can be backed up by scripture
I have not seen anything from your thoughts near what my version of grace is. All this emphasis on trying has nothing to do with my understanding of grace. In fact trying defeats grace and hinders what God has by grace!
Look at it this way. If anything was forgiven before the cross, and the NT states the blood of Christ was required for remission of sins, then they were forgiven on the basis that the cross would occur. Hebrews says remission of sins causes sacrifices to cease to be offered as well as saying making people complete causes cessation. Remission of sins is the question, is it not? Hebrews 10 says where remission of sins is there is no more offering for sin.
So OT sins were only forgiven because of what Christ would do in the future???? Can I add a few more question marks????????? So it was said in the Old Testament they were forgiven, but they weren't actually yet, but people thought they were?? This just gets confusinger and confusinger. Maybe this is where we need time-travel.
Timmy, I think a proper theologian (like myself) would see a difference between sins being "forgiven" and sins being "taken away".
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