Apology to World

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Newman

Wii- Actually, my education about what is happening around the world was stymied by mainstream media. I have learned alot more from the Atlas shrugs site then I ever learned reading the newspaper or watching the news.

Having muslim friends who grew up in America; and whose families deliberately sought the freedom and liberty that America stands for lulled me into thinking that Islam was just like any other religion out there.

BUT, it is not (especially as practiced in the Middle East).

Where is the RAGE in the Middle East over the radical Muslims' extreme, brutal and cruel acts of torture, murder and violence towards infidels and others? Are these acts actively and forcefully renounced or are the people dancing in the street merely moderates who pretend to go along with the "extremists?"

Why does Islam produce so many "extremists" acting in the name of Allah? And why don't the moderates reject them and criminalize their actions? Isn't the proof in the pudding as to Islam's influence for good or bad?

that was my point. Rather than be apologists for Islam, I'd rather see the rage by moderate muslims over these extremists and stand up en masse and denounce it and KEEP denoucing it. Denouce the brutal killings of other Muslims in the name of Allah. Denounce the killings of innocent muslims and non-muslims in the name of Allah. Pressure the people who send money to these Terrorists to stop. Tell Iran to stop that mad man from getting Nukes and threatening to wipe Israel off the map. etc etc

[Walks_in_islam]

Surah 5 consists of a historical list of those who were given commands from God, disobeyed them, and their ends. For some reason includes "acceptable foods" and "forbidden foods".

This Surah does not say "oppose". It says "wage war" or "attack". Different 'twist'.

33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

34. Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Originally Posted by Newman

Speaking of what the president said... It seems he left off the next verse from the Koran which puts it in context. See article below from American Thinker.

Obama quotes verse 5:32, omits 5:33
Mladen Andrijasevic

President Obama in his speech said " The Holy Koran teaches that whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a person, it is as if he has saved all mankind."


I really find it odd that neither President Obama nor any of his advisors did not realize that the meaning of verse 5:32 is not clear until it is quoted together with verse 5:33 which follows it:

005.032


YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land


005.033


YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Update: Andrew Bostom writes:


Immediately following the murderous acts of jihad terrorism committed on September 11, 2001, Ibn Warraq highlighted the tragic irony of many apologists quoting selectively from Qur'an 5:32-"whoso slays a soul . . . shall be as if he had slain mankind altogether; and whoso gives life to a soul, shall be as if he has given life to mankind altogether"- attempting to demonstrate that the Qur'ran disapproved of violence and killing.


Firstly, these wonderful sounding words come from a preexisting Jewish text (Mishnah, IV Division 5, "Thus was created a single man, to teach us that every person who loses a single soul, it shall be written about him as if he has lost the entire world, and every person who sustains a single soul, it shall be written about him as if he has sustained the entire world."

And apologists for Islam-just like President Obama-quote the Koranic words out of context. For the very next verse offers quite a different meaning from that of 5:32, which was "laid...down for the Israelites," as stated in the next verse, 5:33, continuing:


"...Our apostles brought them [the Jews] veritable proofs: yet it was not long before many of them committed great evils in the land. Those that make war against Allah and His apostle [Muhammad] and spread disorder shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the country. (Qur'an 5:33)"


The supposedly noble sentiments of the first verse, taken from a Jewish source, are entirely undercut by the second verse, which becomes a bloodthirsty menacing by Muhammad of the Jews. (And as an aside the Muslim sources estimate Muhammad killed 24,000 Jews in his jihad campaigns against them). Far from abjuring violence, these verses aggressively insist that any who oppose the Muslim prophet will be killed, or crucified, mutilated, and banished.

[Walks_in_islam]

There is much Muslim blood spilled fighting extremists but there would never be enough Muslim blood spilled for you my friend.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

that was my point. Rather than be apologists for Islam, I'd rather see the rage by moderate muslims over these extremists and stand up en masse and denounce it and KEEP denoucing it. Denouce the brutal killings of other Muslims in the name of Allah. Denounce the killings of innocent muslims and non-muslims in the name of Allah. Pressure the people who send money to these Terrorists to stop. Tell Iran to stop that mad man from getting Nukes and threatening to wipe Israel off the map. etc etc

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

There is much Muslim blood spilled fighting extremists but there would never be enough Muslim blood spilled for you my friend.

That's pretty sad considering what I just said. You are full of hate my friend. I hope some day you find peace.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Surah 5 consists of a historical list of those who were given commands from God, disobeyed them, and their ends. For some reason includes "acceptable foods" and "forbidden foods".

This Surah does not say "oppose". It says "wage war" or "attack". Different 'twist'.

33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

34. Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Nice commentary.

[Newman]

Perhaps the greatest failure of the president’s vaunted new approach to Islam is his reluctance to examine the profoundly oppressive and despotic nature of governance in most Arab and Muslim countries as one of the root causes of radical Islam. Worn-out clichés that Islam is “an important part of promoting peace” do little to explain to either Westerners or Muslims the nature of the conflict and how it affects their well-being. It is, of course, a well-known fact that radical Islam would have never reached critical mass without massive financial support and political sponsorship from states such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, and Sudan. What’s less well-known is that many Muslim regimes that are considered moderate, or even American allies, have also aided and abetted Islamic extremism.

Read more of this great article from National Review. http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...ZiZjdlZjZkZjI=

[SOUNWORTHY]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That's pretty sad considering what I just said. You are full of hate my friend. I hope some day you find peace.

I am a little confused as to the real meaning of what he said. I hope he didn't mean it as it sounded.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

I am a little confused as to the real meaning of what he said. I hope he didn't mean it as it sounded.

he did.

[Walks_in_islam]

Sadly I did. My impression, right or wrong, is that this person has spent 3 years spreading hate on this site against strangers he knows nothing about.

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

I am a little confused as to the real meaning of what he said. I hope he didn't mean it as it sounded.

[Walks_in_islam]

It is also a well-known fact that much of the money that funds Islamic radicals comes from the poppy drug trade. The drugs somehow find their way up the noses of christian nations <shrug>. The "funding" is always in dollars. The arms are never produced in these raggedy countries. They always come from somewhere else. Saudi Arabia certainly does not produce or export arms. Iran has no uranium within its own borders. Every uranium deposit in the world is clocked and tracked and identified. You can google it and get the list of (9) or (10) countries for yourself. Nobody on this site can deny that the foremost leader of world terror, Bin Laden, was trained, funded, supplied, and propped up by the US to fight the russians as a proxy. There would have been NO taliban and there would have been NO bin laden had there been no stinger missles, RPG's, grenades, guns, ammo, and other toys along with plenty of (again dollars) handed to those people by US government operatives.

You think Sudan makes ANYTHING of value? Do you know anything about Sudan? Sudan is a raggedy sandpile. Main source of income 150 years ago? Dollars. From the slave trade. lol. Go figure. Same time the Taliban was being trained and funded (80's) what was happening in Sudan? From Wiki: Western countries began supplying Sudan again in the mid 1970s. The United States began selling Sudan a great deal of equipments around 1976, hoping to counteract Soviet support of Marxist Ethiopians and Libyans. Military sales peaked in 1982 at US$101 million. After the start of the second civil war, American assistance dropped, and was eventually all but cancelled in 1987

Do your "white power" right wing articles ever reference recent history? Do they ever describe events leading up to their "calls to arms". I guess not. When the president does it you act shocked. I have no doubt that the "national review" was begging reagan to POUR arms and funding into these same raggedy countries that it is now calling to pound out of existance. The NR at that time called for anything but confront the russians face to face. I know. I was quite the hawk back then.

Moving on to Iraq and those terrible chemical weapons: first it was arms to iran for hostages (they were mad because we quit selling arms to them) then it was arms to iraq to teach iran a lesson

Tens of thousands of Iranian civilians and military personnel were killed when Iraq used chemical weapons in its warfare. Iraq was financially backed by Egypt, the Arab countries of the Persian Gulf, the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact states, the United States (beginning in 1983), France, the United Kingdom, Germany, Brazil, and the People's Republic of China (which also sold weapons to Iran).

It was perfectly OK back then (WE were angry about the iranian hostages) to pour weapons, technology, money, and support into Iraq so that they could fight their 10-year war with Iran. We could have cared less about "chemical weapons" or "weapons of mass destruction" while they were hurled across the border into Iran.

What kicked off the Iranian revolution? The excesses of the Shah regime and their relationships with the western oil consortiums. I currently and sadly see a parallel in Saudi Arabia.

Your "massive financial support" means little until the guns and ammo start arriving. Recent history indicates that each of these countries was deliberately used as a proxy to fight our battles for us. The guns and ammo arrive stamped "made in USA" and we have NO RIGHT to complain when our proxies turn back against us after we discard them. We also have no right to act stunned if we use them and get hated for it. After all, the spilled blood always ends up on THEIR soil not ours so who cares?

Originally Posted by Newman

Perhaps the greatest failure of the president’s vaunted new approach to Islam is his reluctance to examine the profoundly oppressive and despotic nature of governance in most Arab and Muslim countries as one of the root causes of radical Islam. Worn-out clichés that Islam is “an important part of promoting peace” do little to explain to either Westerners or Muslims the nature of the conflict and how it affects their well-being. It is, of course, a well-known fact that radical Islam would have never reached critical mass without massive financial support and political sponsorship from states such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, and Sudan. What’s less well-known is that many Muslim regimes that are considered moderate, or even American allies, have also aided and abetted Islamic extremism.

Read more of this great article from National Review. http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...ZiZjdlZjZkZjI=