The Results Of My Poll Are Shocking

[Nina]

Why doesn't Jesus know when He's coming again?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

And the PROBLEM is you decided for everyone else that the most basic of Oneness confessions HAS to be "Is Jesus the Father".

And such a confession, being as basic and simplistic as it is, is a means for gross OVER SIMPLIFICATION of the Oneness view and because of that sort of thinking the Oneness ranks are full of Nestorians, Unitarians and Monophysites who have all listened to the same simplistic confessions that due to their simplicity are also very subjective

There are what you call "Nestorian Churches". None of them teach Jesus is God the Father. There are Unitarian Churches. None of them teach that Jesus is God the Father.

Oneness Pentecostals and Unitarians do not agree on the deity of Christ period. They agree that God is one. Thats all. I think you know they reject that Jesus is God period.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

There are what you call "Nestorian Churches". None of them teach Jesus is God the Father. There are Unitarian Churches. None of them teach that Jesus is God the Father.

Oneness Pentecostals and Unitarians do not agree on the deity of Christ period. They agree that God is one. Thats all. I think you know they reject that Jesus is God period.

You just obfuscated my point. I didn't say "because we say 'Jesus is the Father' there are nestorians"

I'm saying because we reduce our theology down to overly simplistic statements (plural) we have a theology that is very subjective and the result is we have many that read the same books and hear the same statements being made that have come to a series of different and wrong theological views

"Jesus is the Father" is only ONE of those statements. As explained before such a statement has led many to sound like they have two Jesus's

A "Jesus the Father" who is God and a "Jesus the Son" who is just a man.

Many OPs have therefore delineated that Jesus the Father is His Divine nature and Jesus the Son is His Human Nature but attribute Personality (the state of being a person) to each nature,

On the other hand, others claiming to be Oneness have outright Unitarianism admitting they have 2 Persons named Jesus

And then there are those pesky Patripassionists that either don't see a distinction between Father and Son or don't realize that their over simplification sounds like they are denying a distinction between Father and Son when they say "Jesus is the Father" because it sounds like "The Son is the Father".

Again the issue is not theological necessarily but Apologetical..HOW we are explaining what we believe. What is disturbing is so many are reluctant to examine ourselves yet our Oneness Theology was basically established on the grounds of examining ourselves...when we were all Trinitarians we examined ourselves instead of remaining with the status quo and to this day Michael, at least in the UPC, we still have a Oneness Symposium.

At least in that respect the UPC is still examining and refining it's views and not being afraid to do so. Sadly as a whole most UPCers and other OPs are stuck in reluctance to do what their forefathers did. And sadly the what the UPC does with that symposium doesn't extend to all areas of Oneness Pentecostalism.

We are stuck on "the Traditions of our Fathers" without ever examining if our fathers had everything right

People are pressured into not examining by being labeled an apostate or being bullied by being told "you are just ashamed of...."

Imagine if our Pentecostal forefathers had succumbed to such pressure when they realized the Apostles baptized in Jesus name? Rather than examining it, they just kept the traditions they were taught rather than making sure they had it all correct.

And now what we are saying is not that Oneness is wrong, but how we present it is misleading and overly simplistic and has led to a lot of variations within our own ranks

[Michael The Disciple]

Praxeas

It's actually NOT the simplest or easy confession. It's confusing. Are you asking "Is the Son the Father". Yes some things need explaining. Sorry but welcome to the real world of thinking individuals.

Thank you for welcoming me to the real world of thinking individuals! Nice to be made to feel welcome.

For Oneness to teach that Jesus is God the Father in his deity was not confusing but revealing to me. Teaching this has actually brought millions of people into this truth.

All the people that came into Oneness doctrine since its restoration in the 20th century came through this door. There really was no other. If Jesus were not the Father there would be no debate with the Trins.

Both confess Jesus is God. Oneness has always held there is only one God, the Father and that he came in humanity as the Son Jesus.

And if its confusing to say Jesus is the Father why is it not confusing for us to say Jesus is God? After all Jesus is the SON OF GOD. Should we now downplay that he is God because there are distinctions between God and his Son?

Why not just teach all the word? There will always be the need to then rightly divide it. That is the labor a Bible Teacher signs onto. Its not always easy.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Thank you for welcoming me to the real world of thinking individuals! Nice to be made to feel welcome.

For Oneness to teach that Jesus is God the Father in his deity was not confusing but revealing to me. Teaching this has actually brought millions of people into this truth.

All the people that came into Oneness doctrine since its restoration in the 20th century came through this door. There really was no other. If Jesus were not the Father there would be no debate with the Trins.

Both confess Jesus is God. Oneness has always held there is only one God, the Father and that he came in humanity as the Son Jesus.

And if its confusing to say Jesus is the Father why is it not confusing for us to say Jesus is God? After all Jesus is the
Should we now downplay that he is God because there are distinctions between God and his Son?

Why not just teach all the word? There will always be the need to then rightly divide it. That is the labor a Bible Teacher signs onto. Its not always easy.

You are still missing the point. The difference between THEOLOGY and APOLOGETICS..

BTW when I say "Jesus is God" and I do..I mean "The Son is God", how about you? How come you are apathetic? I started a poll asking if Jesus (the Son) is God and you did not vote.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Socialite

MTD, it's there, just takes digging? And stretching you mean?

What you posted above isn't so clear. You must also remember that though Isa 9 is a Messianic prophecy, it also had a primary meaning, which had much to do with a real King over Israel. "Everlasting Father" has some great significance with that. Dig around and see what you find out this phrase meant to the original audience

Yes its a Messianic prophecy. Yeshua is the Messiah.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You are still missing the point. The difference between THEOLOGY and APOLOGETICS..

BTW when I say "Jesus is God" and I do..I mean "The Son is God", how about you? How come you are apathetic? I started a poll asking if Jesus (the Son) is God and you did not vote.

I have not seen your poll. You said you did not vote on mine didnt you?

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes its a Messianic prophecy. Yeshua is the Messiah.

Keep digging!

[Michael The Disciple]

Prax

You just obfuscated my point. I didn't say "because we say 'Jesus is the Father' there are nestorians"

I never made any such statement or implied that because we believe Jesus is the Father there are Nestorian Churches.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Question for you? If its confusing to say Jesus is the Father why is it NOT confusing to say he is God? After all many scriptures make distinctions between Jesus and God right?

Interesting point...