Apology to World

[SOUNWORTHY]

Speaking of blight. Have you taken a look at the present administration. They take the prize.

[Walks_in_islam]

You are entitled to an answer. I have been busy. New baby.

Originally Posted by Newman

Walks in islam- Sorry for the delay in getting back to our conversation. I was out of town, then sicker than I have been in a long, long time and now pressed for time to make up for what I haven't yet done at work.

We agree that not all who practice Islam are terrorists and there are some parts of Islam to admire. However, I have some bones to pick as well, particularly regarding Islam as practiced in Saudi verses Indonesia.

Your point (and opintion) on this and mine are the same.

I find it very troubling that you are living in Saudi without knowledge of (or otherwise great concern) for the women in the country who have very limited rights and great restrictions to the point of being stoned or whipped for being in the company of a non-relative male (even if one is an old woman being brought a loaf of bread).

I am well aware of, have noted, and have stated as wrond the mis-application of Islamic principles and the added rules added to Islam under the umbrella of islam, including but not limited to this particular country. There is a difference in being aware of this happening and offering that these are exceptions as opposed to rules in Islam itself. "Company of non-relative males" has been used as an excuse by families to severely punish women who get in trouble with their families, BUT what I see on a day-to-day basis are women who go about their day here just like anywhere else, with the exception that in this country they are not allowed to drive themselves for some silly cultural reason. Which means that they use the public or taxi system to go from place to place (all provided by non-relative males of course) so it's like "huh?". MY wife certainly has a license along with her muslim friends from other countries. It never crossed my mind to add a trial like that to the additional burdon of putting up with me lol

I think it unfair to compare the crime rate of America with a country that swiftly and simply eliminates its criminals along with the fornicators, homosexuals, and others by stoning or hanging. I note the lack of freedom in Saudi to practice Christianity unlike the freedom in America to practice Islam.

I was pointing out, good or bad, it works. Hanging and swift justice was eliminated not so long ago in our own country. Our crime rates used to be a lot lower as well.

I also wonder when you are counting the value of aid to other nations; what value you place upon America's contribution of servicemen and women who have bled and died on foreign soil to secure the rights of others; including those of the Islam faith.

As we owe the principles of our republic to the Romans and democracy to the French, many countries of the world owe us a debt for continuing those principles. My family immigrated to the US from Scotland in the 1700's. Our principles are being lost and we are forcing our lifestyle onto other countries and/or being critical of other countries in how they run their affairs without showing good performance in our own. We (I and my family) are lucky as we are exposed to people from all over the world on a daily basis. American principles are greatly admired but lack of ability to solve internal problems while dictating the internal affairs of other countries to others is viewed as hypocritical. I am just sharing, right or wrong, the perceptions that are shared with me by others.

But wonder I shall, since I do not have time now to do the research and back up my understanding at this juncture. Perhaps another time in the distant future....

If your understanding is that what is written to follow and what is practiced by some who claim to follow Islam appears to be different, then your understanding needs no follow up. I would only ask you or anyone who reads or hears about this to determine "what does Islam teach" and then decide for yourselves whether "Islam" is the basis or did a person who says they are "Muslim" who do bad things. You are owed the same thing as christians.

[Walks_in_islam]

Most of the prison population are not "illegal immigrants". Of course you will ignore the numbers (don't let facts cloud the issue, right?) and look outside for the source of your problems because isn't that much easier than holding up a mirror.

prisen is not a word. Some comment can be made on the failing education system but I will save that for another day.

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

Great post, one that Wii will not give you a straight answer. Most of our crimes and most of our prisen population is not made up of Americans but illegal immegrants or at least that is the case in Ca.

[Walks_in_islam]

OH and btw "immegrant" is not a word either

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Most of the prison population are not "illegal immigrants". Of course you will ignore the numbers (don't let facts cloud the issue, right?) and look outside for the source of your problems because isn't that much easier than holding up a mirror.

prisen is not a word. Some comment can be made on the failing education system but I will save that for another day.

[Newman]

WARNING- GRAPHIC AND HORRIBLE!

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

OH and btw "immegrant" is not a word either

WARNING- GRAPHIC AND HORRIBLE!

Wii- I was on the Atlas Shrugs website (it can be googled) and saw some real torture videos; made possible by Muslims who place no value or dignity on human life.

The first video I watched (as Obama's Muslim Speech was heard) was unbelievable to me. I had hope that the man whose arm was ripped from his body might live nevertheless.

However, a second video was the worst thing I have ever seen in my life. A young woman was bound and tape wrapped around her head to cover her mouth. The man with a big knife placed his booted foot upon her head and two other males held her body down as he began to cut her head off.

I could not finish watching the video. I became physically sick and I am still in shock and feel horrible many hours later.

I might have imagined that things might be different from the viewpoint of an Indonesian Muslim or one born in the United States who has truly never heard about jihad at his mosque. BUT I cannot comprehend how one can be in Saudi Arabia and not recoil at the oppression and lack of respect for all human beings.

The things you complain of in America are awful but they are not done in the name of God (but for the most isolated instances). What is done in the name of Allah around the world; and particularly in the Middle East is horrifying beyond words.

I can't begin to comprehend why you have chosen this path in life. I am not buying the rosy picture of Islam you are selling. The news headlines, videos and pictures taken in this day and age speak otherwise.

[Walks_in_islam]

I never joined this site to paint a "rosy picture" or sell anything. Like you and every other un-travelled American I read the same stuff, watch the same news, and hear the same things that you read, watch, and hear. I do not defend extremists. Islamic countries, all of them, have to guard against extremists within their own borders. More so than we do at home BTW. What I do know, for fact, is that typical Muslim families and their faith are in no way, shape, or form depicted accurately in anything that I have read, heard, or watched on the news. They NEVER point out the difference between what Islam teaches and the actions of those who they in their stories say are "Muslims". It's easier to paint all brown-skinned people from other countries as just "Muslims", create a "great enemy", then use the excuse of the "great enemy" to gather political support and power.

What next? You going to check out child porn from Thailand? Old reich films? I had a buddy in houston who used to download all kinds of sicko disgusting stuff as a joke to shock us with. I have news. There are terrible people doing terrible things all over the world and filming them for their own sick enjoyment.

In the "Islam vs Christianity" part of this site I have to take every action, put the text of the Quran beside it where these actions are forbidden, and ask "Is this Islam or is this evil?". Kill an innocent person? It is (as the president said) as you have killed all of mankind. Your end is assured. Accuse a woman of adultery? If she denies it, and you cannot produce (4) independent witnesses, then she is to go free. The Quran specifically says that. It is as impossible to truly under Islamic law prove adultery as it is in the US (when you want to weasel out of paying alimony lol). What does that say about "honor killings" of women then? Islam or something else? What I know from the actual teachings is that it is something else.

Originally Posted by Newman

WARNING- GRAPHIC AND HORRIBLE!



WARNING- GRAPHIC AND HORRIBLE!

Wii- I was on the Atlas Shrugs website (it can be googled) and saw some real torture videos; made possible by Muslims who place no value or dignity on human life.

The first video I watched (as Obama's Muslim Speech was heard) was unbelievable to me. I had hope that the man whose arm was ripped from his body might live nevertheless.

However, a second video was the worst thing I have ever seen in my life. A young woman was bound and tape wrapped around her head to cover her mouth. The man with a big knife placed his booted foot upon her head and two other males held her body down as he began to cut her head off.

I could not finish watching the video. I became physically sick and I am still in shock and feel horrible many hours later.

I might have imagined that things might be different from the viewpoint of an Indonesian Muslim or one born in the United States who has truly never heard about jihad at his mosque. BUT I cannot comprehend how one can be in Saudi Arabia and not recoil at the oppression and lack of respect for all human beings.

The things you complain of in America are awful but they are not done in the name of God (but for the most isolated instances). What is done in the name of Allah around the world; and particularly in the Middle East is horrifying beyond words.

I can't begin to comprehend why you have chosen this path in life. I am not buying the rosy picture of Islam you are selling. The news headlines, videos and pictures taken in this day and age speak otherwise.

[SOUNWORTHY]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I never joined this site to paint a "rosy picture" or sell anything. Like you and every other un-travelled American I read the same stuff, watch the same news, and hear the same things that you read, watch, and hear. I do not defend extremists. Islamic countries, all of them, have to guard against extremists within their own borders. More so than we do at home BTW. What I do know, for fact, is that typical Muslim families and their faith are in no way, shape, or form depicted accurately in anything that I have read, heard, or watched on the news. They NEVER point out the difference between what Islam teaches and the actions of those who they in their stories say are "Muslims". It's easier to paint all brown-skinned people from other countries as just "Muslims", create a "great enemy", then use the excuse of the "great enemy" to gather political support and power.

What next? You going to check out child porn from Thailand? Old reich films? I had a buddy in houston who used to download all kinds of sicko disgusting stuff as a joke to shock us with. I have news. There are terrible people doing terrible things all over the world and filming them for their own sick enjoyment.

In the "Islam vs Christianity" part of this site I have to take every action, put the text of the Quran beside it where these actions are forbidden, and ask "Is this Islam or is this evil?". Kill an innocent person? It is (as the president said) as you have killed all of mankind. Your end is assured. Accuse a woman of adultery? If she denies it, and you cannot produce (4) independent witnesses, then she is to go free. The Quran specifically says that. It is as impossible to truly under Islamic law prove adultery as it is in the US (when you want to weasel out of paying alimony lol). What does that say about "honor killings" of women then? Islam or something else? What I know from the actual teachings is that it is something else.

What a lot of GARBAGE!!!! Typical of most of your posts.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I never joined this site to paint a "rosy picture" or sell anything. Like you and every other un-travelled American I read the same stuff, watch the same news, and hear the same things that you read, watch, and hear. I do not defend extremists. Islamic countries, all of them, have to guard against extremists within their own borders. More so than we do at home BTW. What I do know, for fact, is that typical Muslim families and their faith are in no way, shape, or form depicted accurately in anything that I have read, heard, or watched on the news. They NEVER point out the difference between what Islam teaches and the actions of those who they in their stories say are "Muslims". It's easier to paint all brown-skinned people from other countries as just "Muslims", create a "great enemy", then use the excuse of the "great enemy" to gather political support and power.

Wii- Actually, my education about what is happening around the world was stymied by mainstream media. I have learned alot more from the Atlas shrugs site then I ever learned reading the newspaper or watching the news.

Having muslim friends who grew up in America; and whose families deliberately sought the freedom and liberty that America stands for lulled me into thinking that Islam was just like any other religion out there.

BUT, it is not (especially as practiced in the Middle East).

Where is the RAGE in the Middle East over the radical Muslims' extreme, brutal and cruel acts of torture, murder and violence towards infidels and others? Are these acts actively and forcefully renounced or are the people dancing in the street merely moderates who pretend to go along with the "extremists?"

Why does Islam produce so many "extremists" acting in the name of Allah? And why don't the moderates reject them and criminalize their actions? Isn't the proof in the pudding as to Islam's influence for good or bad?

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

In the "Islam vs Christianity" part of this site I have to take every action, put the text of the Quran beside it where these actions are forbidden, and ask "Is this Islam or is this evil?". Kill an innocent person? It is (as the president said) as you have killed all of mankind. Your end is assured. Accuse a woman of adultery? If she denies it, and you cannot produce (4) independent witnesses, then she is to go free. The Quran specifically says that. It is as impossible to truly under Islamic law prove adultery as it is in the US (when you want to weasel out of paying alimony lol). What does that say about "honor killings" of women then? Islam or something else? What I know from the actual teachings is that it is something else.

Speaking of what the president said... It seems he left off the next verse from the Koran which puts it in context. See article below from American Thinker.

Obama quotes verse 5:32, omits 5:33
Mladen Andrijasevic

President Obama in his speech said " The Holy Koran teaches that whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a person, it is as if he has saved all mankind."


I really find it odd that neither President Obama nor any of his advisors did not realize that the meaning of verse 5:32 is not clear until it is quoted together with verse 5:33 which follows it:

005.032


YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land


005.033


YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Update: Andrew Bostom writes:


Immediately following the murderous acts of jihad terrorism committed on September 11, 2001, Ibn Warraq highlighted the tragic irony of many apologists quoting selectively from Qur'an 5:32-"whoso slays a soul . . . shall be as if he had slain mankind altogether; and whoso gives life to a soul, shall be as if he has given life to mankind altogether"- attempting to demonstrate that the Qur'ran disapproved of violence and killing.


Firstly, these wonderful sounding words come from a preexisting Jewish text (Mishnah, IV Division 5, "Thus was created a single man, to teach us that every person who loses a single soul, it shall be written about him as if he has lost the entire world, and every person who sustains a single soul, it shall be written about him as if he has sustained the entire world."

And apologists for Islam-just like President Obama-quote the Koranic words out of context. For the very next verse offers quite a different meaning from that of 5:32, which was "laid...down for the Israelites," as stated in the next verse, 5:33, continuing:


"...Our apostles brought them [the Jews] veritable proofs: yet it was not long before many of them committed great evils in the land. Those that make war against Allah and His apostle [Muhammad] and spread disorder shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the country. (Qur'an 5:33)"


The supposedly noble sentiments of the first verse, taken from a Jewish source, are entirely undercut by the second verse, which becomes a bloodthirsty menacing by Muhammad of the Jews. (And as an aside the Muslim sources estimate Muhammad killed 24,000 Jews in his jihad campaigns against them). Far from abjuring violence, these verses aggressively insist that any who oppose the Muslim prophet will be killed, or crucified, mutilated, and banished.

[Walks_in_islam]

I guess

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

What a lot of GARBAGE!!!! Typical of most of your posts.