Good answer. But there is a 'deal breaker' for your family. As well, I think there must also be a time when it is a 'deal breaker' in helping out those around you (vs. submission) lest a person end up saying "Am I my brother's keeper?"
Okay, I agree with you. There are some deal-breakers. If I believed someone was being taught false doctrine*, I would tell them so. With no qualms or second thoughts. Further, if I thought they were truly being abused by their leadership or if the church were a cult* I would say so.
Abi's personal definitions for clarification of my point -
*false doctrine - any doctrine which would ultimately or immediately lead to disobedience to God, and the loss of their soul.
*cult - any group in which the leader is unaccountable to anyone but himself, and preaches false doctrine, abuses his authority and the people under his authority and shares dangerous concepts and doctrines.
I hesitate to even make these types of posts, because I think the labels of "abusive", "cult", and "false doctrine" are bandied about way to liberally and those who apply them without careful evaluation and analysis risk judging that which is godly as ungodly, and displeasing God as a result.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
Ok, let me approach this another way. What determines the "who" behind the command to obey those in authority. How is it decided that they are in authority?
If I visit a church, is the Pastor considered my authority? At what point would he become my authority? When I visit a few times? When I sign a membership card? When?
I am a bit late having had work and such....
but i belive the key word is "submit" thus, you need to find someone you can place confidence in.
this notion that the current church model is the problem, seems to me to be an excuse for not submitting to another human being. I dont understand that.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Desiring the will of God and wanting to please Him will never lead you wrong and it doesn't hurt us necessarily to subject ourselves to those who are in authority and to teachings and demands that we may not personally feel are salvational or even necessarily biblical. This has been my experience anyhow.
We need a submissive attitude and spirit. Not blind submission and obedience though and here is where pastors and spiritual leaders have huge responsibility, to not be placing yokes and demands on people that are unnecessary. But then again, lines have to be drawn at some point and no matter where you draw the line ..... no matter how high or how low the "standard" is set there are going to be people who will balk and complain and resist.
No pastor is perfect. No church is perfect. There's always going to be someone expecting something that we may not feel is necessary to submit to. No matter where you go or which pastor is your spiritual leader this is going to be the case. So then we have a choice. Submit or not. Yield or not.
Ourselves, we have allowed people to decide for themselves what they will or won't be in compliance with .... and as long as they're not causing problem in the church but are happy to come, be part of the church, and overall happy with the leadership and feel as if they're being fed spiritually and ministered to we're happy with them being there and don't make them feel as if they don't belong or as if they aren't cared for or loved. We do our best in that regard.
Regardless though, there are always going to complainers, tongue waggers and naysayers. They'll always be part of the church.
__________________ Smiles & Blessings.... ~Felicity Welsh~ (surname courtesy of Jim Yohe)
Michlow
Coonskinner
Ronzo
ILG
Maybe Chan? (Not sure I know exactly what he's saying, so it seems hard to say for certain that I agree, but I think I do)
I agree with Ronzo that we decide who to submit ourselves to. I agree with Chan, that, generically speaking God has already decided who we ought to submit ourselves to (bishops, elders). I agree with Coonskinner that submission has no value until you have to obey in spite of a disagreement. I agree with ILG that we have a responsibility to place ourselves under godly leaders. I can't remember what I agree with Michlow about, but I read something I liked....I'll have to go back and find it.
I think that when you marry, you choose to submit yourself to your husband. It's your choice, but once you've made that commitment, God expects you to fulfill it. That is not to say, however, that you must obey your husband if he tells you to jump off a cliff, or if he tells you to do something that goes against God or something contrary to your convictions. However, there are smaller issues in which my will may be bent to submit to his will, and that's called "submission."
The relationship is not the same, but the principles are, IMO, when it comes to church government. When I choose to join an assembly, I believe that I am making the choice to submit myself to that leadership and "follow....as they follow Christ." That is not to say that, if the leadership were to instruct me in something contrary to God's Word that I would be required to submit, because my first allegience is to God.
However, there are smaller issues which are not a matter of disobeying God or violating my own convictions, but rather require me setting aside my own preferences, and bending my will to that of the church leadership, and that is called "submission."
If I have to submit on every matter, no matter what, no matter what the consequences, that is subservience, not submission. Submission is my choice to be obedient, within certain parameters and boundaries, keeping priorities clearly in focus. My choice is, of course, based on my ultimate submission to God, who is the One who gave me the command, and therefore the concept of submitting to my elders (and my husband...and my parents).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coonskinner
"Wrong" can be a mighty subjective term.
If he is telling them to do something sinful or unscriptural, ILG has a point.
But much of the time the pastor knows things about situations that others who like to second guess and play arm chair quarterback don't know. Thus, they think the advice is wrong when they are uninformed.
If your assessment of "wrong" is just personal disagreement based on opinion and not Scriptural grounds, then you need to do as Miss B has stated, because you are not the one given the oversight of the flock. that is the pastor.
I think the bold parts of these two quotes sum up where most of the problem is. Nobody suggests that one should do something that is clearly wrong.....
but far too many refuse to submit to authority because they dont agree because they are really just disagreeable.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
There have been times as a pastor when I have had to make decisions that were unpopular and disagreed with by some.
I could have cleared my position and taken the heat off myself if I had been at liberty to disclose things that the congregation did not know.
But part of the burden of leadership is doing the right thing even when it comes at personal cost.
I refuse to hurt people by revealing things, even when I have to be the bad guy in the minds of some of the uninformed.
So before you sit back and stick out your chest and pontificate about how ignorant your pastor's advice to someone or decision about something is, bear in mind that just might not know all the facts.
There have been times as a pastor when I have had to make decisions that were unpopular and disagreed with by some.
I could have cleared my position and taken the heat off myself if I had been at liberty to disclose things that the congregation did not know.
But part of the burden of leadership is doing the right thing even when it comes at personal cost.
I refuse to hurt people by revealing things, even when I have to be the bad guy in the minds of some of the uninformed.
So before you sit back and stick out your chest and pontificate about how ignorant your pastor's advice to someone or decision about something is, bear in mind that just might not know all the facts.
J/K 
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